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Agree with you on Python, but until universities stop using Java as their teaching language it would be doing high schoolers a disservice to teach them anything

Agree with you on Python, but until universities stop using Java as their teaching language it would be doing high schoolers a disservice to teach them anything else. I can't imagine spending any time on Scheme since they're so unlikely to get it in college.

ynniv 16y ago
it would be doing high schoolers a disservice to teach them anything else That seems like a shortsighted thing to say. Subjects are introduced in abstract ways that provide a basis for further exploration. How do you teach abstract basics in Java? Just to write hello world you need to understand functions, namespaces, classes, constructors, static functions, compilation, file organization, arrays, and thats just what pops off the top of my head. Kids won't actually learn these things early on, and will rely on templates and copy and paste work that gets them the A without actually learning anything. That would teach them them that programming is too complicated to properly understand, which is certainly a disservice. You can teach the concepts of Java in Scheme, and you can do it incrementally. You can also show that Java is only one way to write code, and that it is specialized for the types of environments it is used in. This would provide a more sound basis for understanding whatever comes after Java, which is important because Java is not going to be the dominent programming language in 50 years.
- jeffreymcmanus 16y ago
  Focusing on Java may very well be shortsighted on the part of today's college-level technology educators, but it's what exists today. If you have a problem with that, you'd have to take your concerns up with the people who run the Computer Science AP exam (the College Board) and university CS departments. We're not trying to overturn the ancien regime here, we're just trying to make something available for kids who may not have access to computer science education of any kind (which is the case at a vast number of US high schools). When questions on Scheme are added to the advanced placement exam in computer science, we'll cover that too.
  - ynniv 16y ago
    Sorry, I didn't identify you as the original poster. I appreciate any effort to help kids learn to program and be better prepared for college computer science. You are correct in saying that my irritation is with College Board and the average college computer science curriculum. I am being hard on the abstract high school computer curriculum. It's a lofty argument, and there isn't much that individuals can do to change it. HN is often the place that people shout into the bitvoid and expect people with similar opinions to echo back. This isn't particularly useful, but c'est la vie. In this case I started off with a snarky comment that probably would have been ignored except for the lack of other comments.
    - jeffreymcmanus 16y ago
      Absolutely not a problem, I understand and share your frustration. Our hope is that by providing a place where all kinds of people can teach and learn all kinds of things, we'll provide a useful compliment to the ossified curricula that most CS programs use today. Now we just need a Scheme course on CodeLesson!

ynniv 16y ago

it would be doing high schoolers a disservice to teach them anything else That seems like a shortsighted thing to say. Subjects are introduced in abstract ways that provide a basis for further exploration. How do you teach abstract basics in Java? Just to write hello world you need to understand functions, namespaces, classes, constructors, static functions, compilation, file organization, arrays, and thats just what pops off the top of my head. Kids won't actually learn these things early on, and will rely on templates and copy and paste work that gets them the A without actually learning anything. That would teach them them that programming is too complicated to properly understand, which is certainly a disservice. You can teach the concepts of Java in Scheme, and you can do it incrementally. You can also show that Java is only one way to write code, and that it is specialized for the types of environments it is used in. This would provide a more sound basis for understanding whatever comes after Java, which is important because Java is not going to be the dominent programming language in 50 years.

jeffreymcmanus 16y ago
Focusing on Java may very well be shortsighted on the part of today's college-level technology educators, but it's what exists today. If you have a problem with that, you'd have to take your concerns up with the people who run the Computer Science AP exam (the College Board) and university CS departments. We're not trying to overturn the ancien regime here, we're just trying to make something available for kids who may not have access to computer science education of any kind (which is the case at a vast number of US high schools). When questions on Scheme are added to the advanced placement exam in computer science, we'll cover that too.
- ynniv 16y ago
  Sorry, I didn't identify you as the original poster. I appreciate any effort to help kids learn to program and be better prepared for college computer science. You are correct in saying that my irritation is with College Board and the average college computer science curriculum. I am being hard on the abstract high school computer curriculum. It's a lofty argument, and there isn't much that individuals can do to change it. HN is often the place that people shout into the bitvoid and expect people with similar opinions to echo back. This isn't particularly useful, but c'est la vie. In this case I started off with a snarky comment that probably would have been ignored except for the lack of other comments.
  - jeffreymcmanus 16y ago
    Absolutely not a problem, I understand and share your frustration. Our hope is that by providing a place where all kinds of people can teach and learn all kinds of things, we'll provide a useful compliment to the ossified curricula that most CS programs use today. Now we just need a Scheme course on CodeLesson!