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Sadly the tone of your answer seems to imply that 'non-technical' people are basically worthless until they've gone out & made it big in the world. Consider tha

Sadly the tone of your answer seems to imply that 'non-technical' people are basically worthless until they've gone out & made it big in the world. Consider that if the money, connections, sales skills & knowledge were already there, they'd just go hire someone. Everyone starts somewhere, and classifying anyone who isn't already very successful as "some random asshole with a great idea for a company begging people go build a company for you and let you come along for the ride" is the type of attitude that gives hackers a bad "elitist who doesn't play well with others" reputation. As I read it the OP's question was pretty simple,"How Do Non-technical Entrepreneurs Find Engineers?" A straight forward and honest question. Replying with,"If you have to ask, you won't find the answer" is not imparting some sort of Yoda-like sage wisdom, rather it just makes you sound kinda like a dick.

justin_vanw 16y ago
Not at all. It's completely symmetric. If you want someone with years of experience, who knows how to build technology products and maintain them, and can get it done, it's not too much to ask that you have years of experience building companies, and know how to get it done. It so happens that an engineer who 'knows how to get it done' will have plenty of examples of things they have done in the past, and the same goes for a business person. It also so happens that a business person who has 'got it done' will have the things I listed in their toolkit. Not having those things is a really strong signal that they are full of shit.
- MrFlibble 16y ago
  So if I understand you correctly, rather than answering the "how do I find an engineer" question posed by the OP, you are instead suggesting that unless you are a very successful in the business world you should just forget it. Is that what you meant? If so, it kinda contradicts the whole HN vibe, don'tcha think? If everyone insisted they only work with the successful cream of the crop, then it would be the same handful of people working together all the time & the little guy would never get a chance. Look at it this way, what if every seed capital & VC fund required you to already be successful before they'd talk to you? Btw, I know plenty of business people with only one of the things listed in your toolkit who are nonetheless very competent people who I'd be glad to work with and who are most certainly not full of shit. It sounds like you've been burned in the past, but don't let that color your opinion of all non-technical business folk.
  - justin_vanw 16y ago
    So what do your friends bring to the table? Why would any top-notch engineer want to partner with someone who has no network, and can't sell? What will they be doing all day to earn half or more of the profits of the company? Or do your friends have money, but no knowledge of the industry they intend to start a company in, no network, and no sales skills? Or do they suck at sales, have no network and no money, but really know the industry? Who's going to pay for servers, the engineer who is also giving up thousands and thousands of dollars in opportunity costs? Who's going to get them in the door to do their terrible sales pitch to potential customers? Non-technical business people have to be ready to hit the ground running just as hard as the technical people. Having amazing business people really is half of a successful technology company. As a result, having shitty business people basically ruins your chances. Finally, to address your point, how do you think you get a meeting with VCs? You just show up at their door and they cut you a check? Either you have an in with them through your network, or you have to sell them on your idea. But you say your friends only have one of (money, network, knowledge, sales skills). So, if they have the network they can get in the door, but not get any VC money, or if they have sales skills they can get the deal but can't get in the door. However you slice it up, it's fail. No, I don't think this conflicts at all with the HN vibe. HN is HackerNews. Paul Graham was writing books on Common-Lisp well before he got into the entrepreneurship game. If anything, HN is about giving awesome technical people the skills they need in business, not hand holding wanna-be entrepreneurs who can't contribute (not that all business people fall into that category at all, but I'd wager all the ones who are trolling the internet to find people to do work on their 'great idea' do fall into it).
    - MrFlibble 16y ago
      I don't know if it reads back to you the way I read it, but your descriptions sound like anyone less than a business superstar is a failure. They are either amazing or shitty with no in-between, which is not the case in the real world. It seems like your ideal leans more towards working with people who by your descriptions sound like they could just as easily hire you as partner with you. Obviously you know your stuff and have been in the tech game a long time & have likely seen/dealt with some ridiculous shit. Conversely I've had a few crazy run-ins on the other side, including having a coder extraordinaire bailing halfway through a paid gig taking much of the code with him (lesson learned). The trick is to not let that prejudice one's views, which is often not so easy. So I think perhaps I should clarify on my friend example using one friend in particular. This fellow made 6 figures for many years, opened restaurants, tanning salons, real estate ventures... things that are not technology based. He built himself up from nothing and eventually transitioned to an attempt in an industry which was new to him. He did well there too even though none of those years of experience, contacts or sales & networking applied to the new industry. He just had drive to make it work. Regarding your VC comment, this same friend's story applies to that as well. He entered this new industry and within months had developed a network of investors by sheer determination and perseverance. So I guess the question to you is would you discount someone who is passionate and works their ass off just because he doesn't have the network or background specifically in the tech field? Some people are ready to "hit the ground running" as you say, even if it isn't in their area of strength. I've found these types are usually great to work with and are go-getters in any field, and if the project is their baby, they work even harder. So back to the beginning of this whole conversation. We all start somewhere, we all make connections from reaching out, so why do you find replying to non-technical business folk to be an exercise in "hand holding wanna-be entrepreneurs who can't contribute"? Sure it may go nowhere, but maybe it could lead to a great venture, you never know.

justin_vanw 16y ago

Not at all. It's completely symmetric. If you want someone with years of experience, who knows how to build technology products and maintain them, and can get it done, it's not too much to ask that you have years of experience building companies, and know how to get it done. It so happens that an engineer who 'knows how to get it done' will have plenty of examples of things they have done in the past, and the same goes for a business person. It also so happens that a business person who has 'got it done' will have the things I listed in their toolkit. Not having those things is a really strong signal that they are full of shit.

MrFlibble 16y ago
So if I understand you correctly, rather than answering the "how do I find an engineer" question posed by the OP, you are instead suggesting that unless you are a very successful in the business world you should just forget it. Is that what you meant? If so, it kinda contradicts the whole HN vibe, don'tcha think? If everyone insisted they only work with the successful cream of the crop, then it would be the same handful of people working together all the time & the little guy would never get a chance. Look at it this way, what if every seed capital & VC fund required you to already be successful before they'd talk to you? Btw, I know plenty of business people with only one of the things listed in your toolkit who are nonetheless very competent people who I'd be glad to work with and who are most certainly not full of shit. It sounds like you've been burned in the past, but don't let that color your opinion of all non-technical business folk.
- justin_vanw 16y ago
  So what do your friends bring to the table? Why would any top-notch engineer want to partner with someone who has no network, and can't sell? What will they be doing all day to earn half or more of the profits of the company? Or do your friends have money, but no knowledge of the industry they intend to start a company in, no network, and no sales skills? Or do they suck at sales, have no network and no money, but really know the industry? Who's going to pay for servers, the engineer who is also giving up thousands and thousands of dollars in opportunity costs? Who's going to get them in the door to do their terrible sales pitch to potential customers? Non-technical business people have to be ready to hit the ground running just as hard as the technical people. Having amazing business people really is half of a successful technology company. As a result, having shitty business people basically ruins your chances. Finally, to address your point, how do you think you get a meeting with VCs? You just show up at their door and they cut you a check? Either you have an in with them through your network, or you have to sell them on your idea. But you say your friends only have one of (money, network, knowledge, sales skills). So, if they have the network they can get in the door, but not get any VC money, or if they have sales skills they can get the deal but can't get in the door. However you slice it up, it's fail. No, I don't think this conflicts at all with the HN vibe. HN is HackerNews. Paul Graham was writing books on Common-Lisp well before he got into the entrepreneurship game. If anything, HN is about giving awesome technical people the skills they need in business, not hand holding wanna-be entrepreneurs who can't contribute (not that all business people fall into that category at all, but I'd wager all the ones who are trolling the internet to find people to do work on their 'great idea' do fall into it).
  - MrFlibble 16y ago
    I don't know if it reads back to you the way I read it, but your descriptions sound like anyone less than a business superstar is a failure. They are either amazing or shitty with no in-between, which is not the case in the real world. It seems like your ideal leans more towards working with people who by your descriptions sound like they could just as easily hire you as partner with you. Obviously you know your stuff and have been in the tech game a long time & have likely seen/dealt with some ridiculous shit. Conversely I've had a few crazy run-ins on the other side, including having a coder extraordinaire bailing halfway through a paid gig taking much of the code with him (lesson learned). The trick is to not let that prejudice one's views, which is often not so easy. So I think perhaps I should clarify on my friend example using one friend in particular. This fellow made 6 figures for many years, opened restaurants, tanning salons, real estate ventures... things that are not technology based. He built himself up from nothing and eventually transitioned to an attempt in an industry which was new to him. He did well there too even though none of those years of experience, contacts or sales & networking applied to the new industry. He just had drive to make it work. Regarding your VC comment, this same friend's story applies to that as well. He entered this new industry and within months had developed a network of investors by sheer determination and perseverance. So I guess the question to you is would you discount someone who is passionate and works their ass off just because he doesn't have the network or background specifically in the tech field? Some people are ready to "hit the ground running" as you say, even if it isn't in their area of strength. I've found these types are usually great to work with and are go-getters in any field, and if the project is their baby, they work even harder. So back to the beginning of this whole conversation. We all start somewhere, we all make connections from reaching out, so why do you find replying to non-technical business folk to be an exercise in "hand holding wanna-be entrepreneurs who can't contribute"? Sure it may go nowhere, but maybe it could lead to a great venture, you never know.