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For people saying vegan diets might not be healthy it's trivial to find information online about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_nutrition https://en

For people saying vegan diets might not be healthy it's trivial to find information online about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_nutrition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_nutrition > The American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (formerly known as the American Dietetic Association), Dietitians of Canada and the British Dietetic Association[6] state that well-planned vegan diets can meet all human nutrient requirements and are appropriate for all stages of life, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence,[1] while the German Society for Nutrition does not recommend vegan diets for children, adolescents, or during pregnancy and breastfeeding.[7] The American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics adds that well-planned vegan diets are also appropriate for older adults and athletes, and that vegan diets may reduce the risk of certain health conditions, such as cancer.[1] > Special attention may be necessary to ensure that a vegan diet will provide adequate amounts of vitamin B12, omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin D, calcium, iron, zinc, and iodine.[1][2] These nutrients may be available in plant foods, with the exception of vitamin B12, which can only be obtained from B12-fortified vegan foods or supplements. Iodine may also require supplementation, such as using iodized salt.[8] There's well-known athletes that are vegan as well: https://www.businessinsider.com/vegan-athletes-and-why-they-changed-their-diet-11?r=US&IR=T#fabian-delph-soccer-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/vegan-athletes-and-why-they-...

lm28469 8y ago
Our bodies evolved to make us omnivores, I don't see why we should restrain ourselves to such extent. What we need is moderation and sustainable means of production. This is clearly misaligned with our current lifestyles though. [0] In a few generations we went from "meat/fish is a once in a week delicacy" to "cheap meat at every single meal" (see the so called "meat lovers" thinking they're entitled to 2 pounds of bacon a day). Talk to your grandparents or great grandparents if they're still alive, they solved sustainability with low tech and no money, at the cost of convenience and comfort obviously, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. [0] https://www.nrdc.org/resources/wasted-how-america-losing-40-percent-its-food-farm-fork-landfill https://www.nrdc.org/resources/wasted-how-america-losing-40-...
- seanwilson 8y ago
  > Our bodies evolved to make us omnivores, I don't see why we should restrain ourselves to such extent. How is this not just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy? > What we need is moderation and sustainable means of production. This is clearly misaligned with our current lifestyles though. [0] > In a few generations we went from "meat/fish is a once in a week delicacy" to "cheap meat at every single meal" (see the so called "meat lovers" thinking they're entitled to 2 pounds of bacon a day). This seems to agree with you: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/10/huge-reduction-in-meat-eating-essential-to-avoid-climate-breakdown https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/10/huge-red... > Food production already causes great damage to the environment, via greenhouse gases from livestock, deforestation and water shortages from farming, and vast ocean dead zones from agricultural pollution. But without action, its impact will get far worse as the world population rises by 2.3 billion people by 2050 and global income triples, enabling more people to eat meat-rich western diets. > The researchers found a global shift to a “flexitarian” diet was needed to keep climate change even under 2C, let alone 1.5C. This flexitarian diet means the average world citizen needs to eat 75% less beef, 90% less pork and half the number of eggs, while tripling consumption of beans and pulses and quadrupling nuts and seeds. This would halve emissions from livestock and better management of manure would enable further cuts.
  - lm28469 8y ago
    > How is this not just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy? > The naturalistic fallacy is the idea that what is found in nature is good. My phrasing wasn't the best, but I'm not taking any moral ("what is good") stands here. If we can solve all the issues with moderate and sustainable meat/fish/eggs/dairy consumption, or even vegetarianism, I fail to see the appeal going the extra mile and going full vegan (unless we go into a moral argument but I don't think it's the point here), knowing that it most likely requires closer monitoring for deficiency. I might be wrong, but to me it seems to be the path of least resistance. I don't have time to look into it longer, but typing "enough resources for vegan world" in google gives me these. Either I chose very poor keywords, or veganism isn't the messiah that'll save us all. I tend to think that moderation is the key in pretty much any domain. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/aug/16/veganism-not-key-sustainable-development-natural-resources-jimmy-smith https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/aug/16/v... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/vegani... https://www.businessinsider.de/veganism-may-be-unsustainable-in-the-future-according-to-new-research-2018-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.de/veganism-may-be-unsustainable... https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/vegan-diet-everyone-us-follow-health-impact-meat-nutrients-deficit-supply-scientists-study-a8064981.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families... https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/vegan-diet-everyone-us-follow-health-impact-meat-nutrients-deficit-supply-scientists-study-a8064981.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...
LMYahooTFY 8y ago
None of this means a vegan diet might not be healthy for _some subset_ of the population. No one on earth has ANY diet that can be said to be "healthy" for anyone and everyone. Putting allergens, auto-immune disorders, GI disorders, etc. aside, people have been shown to process various energy sources with varying degrees of consequences.
- seanwilson 8y ago
  > None of this means a vegan diet might not be healthy for _some subset_ of the population > No one on earth has ANY diet that can be said to be "healthy" for anyone and everyone. Why the hair splitting? Obviously nobody is claiming that. If the word "healthy" is supposed to be used in that way it wouldn't be useful for anything.
- SupremeMeat 8y ago
  I have one: meat primary zero carb.
jeffdavis 8y ago
"Well-planned" is easier said than done, and requires artificial supplements (we don't have the right hardware for B12 production and plants don't have it). I personally don't think its a good idea for children unless you really know what you are doing and monitor things closely.
- seanwilson 8y ago
  > "Well-planned" is easier said than done, and requires artificial supplements (we don't have the right hardware for B12 production and plants don't have it). What's so hard or wrong with taking supplements or B12 enriched foods you might have daily anyway(e.g. soy milk)? As far as I understand, our plants lack B12 because B12 comes from soil and pesticide use + sanitising robs plants of the B12 we'd normally get from them. Modern farming practices mean some farm animals have to be given B12 supplements for similar reasons so you're not getting B12 from how you'd traditionally be getting it anyway if you're going from that angle. > I personally don't think its a good idea for children unless you really know what you are doing and monitor things closely. Are people that bring up kids with no other monitoring than letting them eat meat going to fare much better? Is there documented evidence than vegan parents are regularly putting their kids at risk more-so than non-vegans or this is a theoretical objection?
  - jeffdavis 8y ago
    Cows and sheep have special cultures of B12-producing bacteria held in seperate chambers of their digestive tracts. Rabbits pass food multiple times so they can get B12 from bacteria. Are you that B12 is abundant enough in natural soil? When I looked before, I couldn't find any reliable natural source humans could reasonably consume.
    - seanwilson 8y ago
      > Cows and sheep have special cultures of B12-producing bacteria held in seperate chambers of their digestive tracts. Rabbits pass food multiple times so they can get B12 from bacteria. Are they able to do this without any special supplements on modern farms though (e.g. with cows on antibiotics eating grain instead of grass)? > Are you that B12 is abundant enough in natural soil? When I looked before, I couldn't find any reliable natural source humans could reasonably consume. I'm not sure to be honest. My point is modern farming interrupts how nutrients would normally get into our food chain anyway so I don't see the big deal in taking supplements directly.

lm28469 8y ago

Our bodies evolved to make us omnivores, I don't see why we should restrain ourselves to such extent. What we need is moderation and sustainable means of production. This is clearly misaligned with our current lifestyles though. [0] In a few generations we went from "meat/fish is a once in a week delicacy" to "cheap meat at every single meal" (see the so called "meat lovers" thinking they're entitled to 2 pounds of bacon a day). Talk to your grandparents or great grandparents if they're still alive, they solved sustainability with low tech and no money, at the cost of convenience and comfort obviously, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. [0] https://www.nrdc.org/resources/wasted-how-america-losing-40-percent-its-food-farm-fork-landfill https://www.nrdc.org/resources/wasted-how-america-losing-40-...

seanwilson 8y ago
> Our bodies evolved to make us omnivores, I don't see why we should restrain ourselves to such extent. How is this not just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy? > What we need is moderation and sustainable means of production. This is clearly misaligned with our current lifestyles though. [0] > In a few generations we went from "meat/fish is a once in a week delicacy" to "cheap meat at every single meal" (see the so called "meat lovers" thinking they're entitled to 2 pounds of bacon a day). This seems to agree with you: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/10/huge-reduction-in-meat-eating-essential-to-avoid-climate-breakdown https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/10/huge-red... > Food production already causes great damage to the environment, via greenhouse gases from livestock, deforestation and water shortages from farming, and vast ocean dead zones from agricultural pollution. But without action, its impact will get far worse as the world population rises by 2.3 billion people by 2050 and global income triples, enabling more people to eat meat-rich western diets. > The researchers found a global shift to a “flexitarian” diet was needed to keep climate change even under 2C, let alone 1.5C. This flexitarian diet means the average world citizen needs to eat 75% less beef, 90% less pork and half the number of eggs, while tripling consumption of beans and pulses and quadrupling nuts and seeds. This would halve emissions from livestock and better management of manure would enable further cuts.
- lm28469 8y ago
  > How is this not just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy? > The naturalistic fallacy is the idea that what is found in nature is good. My phrasing wasn't the best, but I'm not taking any moral ("what is good") stands here. If we can solve all the issues with moderate and sustainable meat/fish/eggs/dairy consumption, or even vegetarianism, I fail to see the appeal going the extra mile and going full vegan (unless we go into a moral argument but I don't think it's the point here), knowing that it most likely requires closer monitoring for deficiency. I might be wrong, but to me it seems to be the path of least resistance. I don't have time to look into it longer, but typing "enough resources for vegan world" in google gives me these. Either I chose very poor keywords, or veganism isn't the messiah that'll save us all. I tend to think that moderation is the key in pretty much any domain. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/aug/16/veganism-not-key-sustainable-development-natural-resources-jimmy-smith https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/aug/16/v... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/vegani... https://www.businessinsider.de/veganism-may-be-unsustainable-in-the-future-according-to-new-research-2018-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.de/veganism-may-be-unsustainable... https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/vegan-diet-everyone-us-follow-health-impact-meat-nutrients-deficit-supply-scientists-study-a8064981.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families... https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/vegan-diet-everyone-us-follow-health-impact-meat-nutrients-deficit-supply-scientists-study-a8064981.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...

LMYahooTFY 8y ago

None of this means a vegan diet might not be healthy for _some subset_ of the population. No one on earth has ANY diet that can be said to be "healthy" for anyone and everyone. Putting allergens, auto-immune disorders, GI disorders, etc. aside, people have been shown to process various energy sources with varying degrees of consequences.

seanwilson 8y ago
> None of this means a vegan diet might not be healthy for _some subset_ of the population > No one on earth has ANY diet that can be said to be "healthy" for anyone and everyone. Why the hair splitting? Obviously nobody is claiming that. If the word "healthy" is supposed to be used in that way it wouldn't be useful for anything.
SupremeMeat 8y ago
I have one: meat primary zero carb.

jeffdavis 8y ago

"Well-planned" is easier said than done, and requires artificial supplements (we don't have the right hardware for B12 production and plants don't have it). I personally don't think its a good idea for children unless you really know what you are doing and monitor things closely.

seanwilson 8y ago
> "Well-planned" is easier said than done, and requires artificial supplements (we don't have the right hardware for B12 production and plants don't have it). What's so hard or wrong with taking supplements or B12 enriched foods you might have daily anyway(e.g. soy milk)? As far as I understand, our plants lack B12 because B12 comes from soil and pesticide use + sanitising robs plants of the B12 we'd normally get from them. Modern farming practices mean some farm animals have to be given B12 supplements for similar reasons so you're not getting B12 from how you'd traditionally be getting it anyway if you're going from that angle. > I personally don't think its a good idea for children unless you really know what you are doing and monitor things closely. Are people that bring up kids with no other monitoring than letting them eat meat going to fare much better? Is there documented evidence than vegan parents are regularly putting their kids at risk more-so than non-vegans or this is a theoretical objection?
- jeffdavis 8y ago
  Cows and sheep have special cultures of B12-producing bacteria held in seperate chambers of their digestive tracts. Rabbits pass food multiple times so they can get B12 from bacteria. Are you that B12 is abundant enough in natural soil? When I looked before, I couldn't find any reliable natural source humans could reasonably consume.
  - seanwilson 8y ago
    > Cows and sheep have special cultures of B12-producing bacteria held in seperate chambers of their digestive tracts. Rabbits pass food multiple times so they can get B12 from bacteria. Are they able to do this without any special supplements on modern farms though (e.g. with cows on antibiotics eating grain instead of grass)? > Are you that B12 is abundant enough in natural soil? When I looked before, I couldn't find any reliable natural source humans could reasonably consume. I'm not sure to be honest. My point is modern farming interrupts how nutrients would normally get into our food chain anyway so I don't see the big deal in taking supplements directly.