4 ms·

So called "developed" countries were once similarly careless with their waste. And their developed status was a result of such carelessness and the free expansi

So called "developed" countries were once similarly careless with their waste. And their developed status was a result of such carelessness and the free expansion of their industries. It seems slightly unfair to expect developing countries to achieve a similar level of development via a sustainable methodology immediately, when that has not been the path for the richest countries in the world. (Given that developing countries are likely more concerned about the health of their population, and as such, focused on raising GDP, then the health of the ocean). Skipping to sustainable-led development is not impossible and obviously would be hugely advantageous for all, but it is still equally unfair to assign blame to such countries and label them as careless.

cableshaft 8y ago
So we should give all developing countries a pass on destroying the habitability of the planet because we used to be as bad ourselves when we didn't know better? While it may be 'fair', I don't think that's sustainable. Even if these countries eventually become 'developed' and start behaving better, there will be new countries that will become 'developed' to take their place, and we'll just keep having these issues over and over until it's too late. We're already (collectively) fucking the ecosystems and wiping out tons of species of flora and fauna, and making the living situation of billions (and possibly trillions) of life forms on this planet more toxic and less comfortable all in the name of convenience and growth. And it seems like we're on a trajectory of only making things worse in the future. We need to start doing something about it, the developed countries by being an example and by taking advantage of our desirable trade status by providing incentives (trade, foreign aid, whatever) for developing countries to clean up their act sooner than later.
- bleigh0 8y ago
  I don't dispute that it is unsustainable. I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying (and did in the end of my comment) despite you strawmanning my comment. I was just making the point that assigning blame to current developing countries is unfair because blame should be equally apportioned to today's developed countries who, throughout their period of industrialisation, kicked off the anthropocene.
sah2ed 8y ago
You’ve basically just described the conceptual idea behind what economists call the “environmental kuznets curve”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznets_curve#Environmental_Kuznets_curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznets_curve#Environmental_...
koheripbal 8y ago
The countries listed above are far more developed than you are giving them credit for. They absolutely have the ability to recycle.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  I mean... no where I personally traveled in Indonesia had trash service. Maybe Jakarta and Java do, IDK. But it’s REALLY common to just dump your trash behind your place and burn it. It’s just what you do. Malaysia was better, but I’m sure people there and in Taiwan still burn trash. Asking people who are still burning trash to recycle might be a step too far just yet.
- bleigh0 8y ago
  Of course they have the ability to recycle. They even have the ability to be 100% sustainable (e.g. Costa Rica). My point was on the matter of anthropocene blame culture.

cableshaft 8y ago

So we should give all developing countries a pass on destroying the habitability of the planet because we used to be as bad ourselves when we didn't know better? While it may be 'fair', I don't think that's sustainable. Even if these countries eventually become 'developed' and start behaving better, there will be new countries that will become 'developed' to take their place, and we'll just keep having these issues over and over until it's too late. We're already (collectively) fucking the ecosystems and wiping out tons of species of flora and fauna, and making the living situation of billions (and possibly trillions) of life forms on this planet more toxic and less comfortable all in the name of convenience and growth. And it seems like we're on a trajectory of only making things worse in the future. We need to start doing something about it, the developed countries by being an example and by taking advantage of our desirable trade status by providing incentives (trade, foreign aid, whatever) for developing countries to clean up their act sooner than later.

bleigh0 8y ago
I don't dispute that it is unsustainable. I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying (and did in the end of my comment) despite you strawmanning my comment. I was just making the point that assigning blame to current developing countries is unfair because blame should be equally apportioned to today's developed countries who, throughout their period of industrialisation, kicked off the anthropocene.

sah2ed 8y ago

You’ve basically just described the conceptual idea behind what economists call the “environmental kuznets curve”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznets_curve#Environmental_Kuznets_curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznets_curve#Environmental_...

koheripbal 8y ago

The countries listed above are far more developed than you are giving them credit for. They absolutely have the ability to recycle.

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
I mean... no where I personally traveled in Indonesia had trash service. Maybe Jakarta and Java do, IDK. But it’s REALLY common to just dump your trash behind your place and burn it. It’s just what you do. Malaysia was better, but I’m sure people there and in Taiwan still burn trash. Asking people who are still burning trash to recycle might be a step too far just yet.
bleigh0 8y ago
Of course they have the ability to recycle. They even have the ability to be 100% sustainable (e.g. Costa Rica). My point was on the matter of anthropocene blame culture.