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Plastic is just an example. Greenhouse gases are another. The system in which it's a systemic problem already has and will continue to introduce other such pro

Plastic is just an example. Greenhouse gases are another. The system in which it's a systemic problem already has and will continue to introduce other such problems. And it's more than just that "under capitalism there is no incentive to eliminate negative externalities", which is certainly true; without a way to avoid unaccountable concentrations of power, concentrated power will reinforce itself and find a way to cheat any system oriented toward the greater good. I'm not convinced it's possible in the long run to avoid the existence of these problems. Our best hope is faster and faster problem recognition, and magically broad solutions that work faster than the problems' deterioration.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Agree with most of this. I don't want to though - I find it inherently depressing that we simply can't or won't do better. I want my kids to have a half decent life. We seem destined to keep right on trucking until we drive right off the cliff of collapse. I don't agree it has to be the way of capitalism though, it's a problem of unfettered capitalism. We have more than enough history to know. Post war we were happy to constrain and limit capitalism to give an unprecedented period of rising standards with rising regulation, services and low inequality. Neoliberalism broke it. Rowing back the excess power and politicisation of unions was one thing - removing them as a usable concept for two generations entirely another. If negative externalities can be ignored, then regulate until they can't, even if it has to be an entirely arbitrary tax on plastic, emissions or whatever. No country seems willing to go first, so we're stuck with the lowest common denominator of international agreements. Agreements where one or two derail any chance of global action and the rest won't get on without unanimity. Which starts to look insane.
- kirkules 8y ago
  I don't mean it has to be the way of capitalism, but I've become pretty cynical about how long the kind of capitalism we'd prefer can last, precisely because capitalism (which is actually superbly poorly defined wherever it's used and you and I likely aren't even referring to the same thing in the end) seems to inherently enable concentrations of wealth and power. That said, I recognize that I don't know what the right alternative should be.
SupremeCO2 8y ago
I've taken to burning paper trash to offset the CO2 depletion caused by greenies' reduction programs. I can't do it alone, it takes a team effort to ensure there's more CO2 in the air for plants to breathe in the future!

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

Agree with most of this. I don't want to though - I find it inherently depressing that we simply can't or won't do better. I want my kids to have a half decent life. We seem destined to keep right on trucking until we drive right off the cliff of collapse. I don't agree it has to be the way of capitalism though, it's a problem of unfettered capitalism. We have more than enough history to know. Post war we were happy to constrain and limit capitalism to give an unprecedented period of rising standards with rising regulation, services and low inequality. Neoliberalism broke it. Rowing back the excess power and politicisation of unions was one thing - removing them as a usable concept for two generations entirely another. If negative externalities can be ignored, then regulate until they can't, even if it has to be an entirely arbitrary tax on plastic, emissions or whatever. No country seems willing to go first, so we're stuck with the lowest common denominator of international agreements. Agreements where one or two derail any chance of global action and the rest won't get on without unanimity. Which starts to look insane.

kirkules 8y ago
I don't mean it has to be the way of capitalism, but I've become pretty cynical about how long the kind of capitalism we'd prefer can last, precisely because capitalism (which is actually superbly poorly defined wherever it's used and you and I likely aren't even referring to the same thing in the end) seems to inherently enable concentrations of wealth and power. That said, I recognize that I don't know what the right alternative should be.

SupremeCO2 8y ago

I've taken to burning paper trash to offset the CO2 depletion caused by greenies' reduction programs. I can't do it alone, it takes a team effort to ensure there's more CO2 in the air for plants to breathe in the future!