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OK, I've largely conceded re pigs. But do you agree that there's a good case that rodents are more closely related to primates than most other mammals are? Or

OK, I've largely conceded re pigs. But do you agree that there's a good case that rodents are more closely related to primates than most other mammals are? Or do you believe that the evidence is too weak? I could do some serious literature research, I suppose. But I didn't really set out to write a review.

thaumasiotes 8y ago
I have nothing against the claim that rodents are closer to primates than other mammals are. I don't think that goes a long way toward explaining the use of mice in labs; it would be an equally strong argument for using gerbils, rabbits, capybaras... I think mice are used because they're small and easy to keep, and because by now there's a lot of lab-mouse-specific infrastructure -- existing literature about them, special strains of mice bred for use in the lab, and so on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratory_mouse#History_as_a_biological_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratory_mouse#History_as_a_... suggests (in my eyes) that the use of mice is basically a coincidence. The fact that they're at least as closely related to humans as other similarly cheap, non-dangerous animals is a plus, but I don't think it was the reason mice were used historically and I think it's only a minor contributor to the continuing use of mice today. When you're really hoping to transfer a finding over to humans, you use monkey models, though I understand those are getting rarer under a combination of cost and animal-rights-activism issues.
- mirimir 8y ago
  From an historical perspective, I totally agree. Decades ago, when scientists settled on the mouse model, I don't believe that there was much (if any) solid evidence about evolutionary relatedness. As you say, mice were used because they were the least-expensive mammalian option. Even so, it's arguable that predictive success for the mouse model helped drive its widespread adoption. Even so, just about all small mammals (e.g., rodents, shrews and moles) are more closely related to primates than large mammals. So maybe it was inevitable. > ... getting rarer ... Funny story. I was a grad student in the late 70s. And there was an animal-rights riot on campus. The primate lab was besieged. And some of us, whose thesis research depended on our building's mouse colony, were totally freaked.

thaumasiotes 8y ago

I have nothing against the claim that rodents are closer to primates than other mammals are. I don't think that goes a long way toward explaining the use of mice in labs; it would be an equally strong argument for using gerbils, rabbits, capybaras... I think mice are used because they're small and easy to keep, and because by now there's a lot of lab-mouse-specific infrastructure -- existing literature about them, special strains of mice bred for use in the lab, and so on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratory_mouse#History_as_a_biological_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratory_mouse#History_as_a_... suggests (in my eyes) that the use of mice is basically a coincidence. The fact that they're at least as closely related to humans as other similarly cheap, non-dangerous animals is a plus, but I don't think it was the reason mice were used historically and I think it's only a minor contributor to the continuing use of mice today. When you're really hoping to transfer a finding over to humans, you use monkey models, though I understand those are getting rarer under a combination of cost and animal-rights-activism issues.

mirimir 8y ago
From an historical perspective, I totally agree. Decades ago, when scientists settled on the mouse model, I don't believe that there was much (if any) solid evidence about evolutionary relatedness. As you say, mice were used because they were the least-expensive mammalian option. Even so, it's arguable that predictive success for the mouse model helped drive its widespread adoption. Even so, just about all small mammals (e.g., rodents, shrews and moles) are more closely related to primates than large mammals. So maybe it was inevitable. > ... getting rarer ... Funny story. I was a grad student in the late 70s. And there was an animal-rights riot on campus. The primate lab was besieged. And some of us, whose thesis research depended on our building's mouse colony, were totally freaked.