6 ms·

What a horrible waste of a wonderful person. We should all do what we can to make sure society completely rejects the out-moded and dangerous ideology that caus

by ixtli 8y ago

What a horrible waste of a wonderful person. We should all do what we can to make sure society completely rejects the out-moded and dangerous ideology that caused this.

0815test 8y ago
You know, I might easily agree with you, except that this was not "caused" solely by ideology, and to believe this might be not only misleading, but also quite dangerous. The nihilistic sociopath who has perpetrated this heinous act would like nothing more than for people to increasingly magnify his vacuous, meaningless 'ideology', by which he clearly hoped to mislead the public into following his deranged delusion, that fame and self-aggrandizement for him might result from mindless murder; from destroying the best that life has to offer on this Earth. Let's not give him that, let's not fall into this trap he has cleverly laid out for us. We should simply wholesale-reject that outrageous, inhumane way of thinking, and not give it even that hint of dignity that this incredibly misleading term, "ideology", might imply.
- tomlock 8y ago
  We should still reject that ideology.
  - alexandre_m 8y ago
    We should reject most, if not all, ideologies.
    - fwip 8y ago
      An ideology is just a system of values and ideas about the world. Everyone has one.
      - alexandre_m 8y ago
        To a certain extent yes, but unfortunately it's more than just a set of principles. Ideologies tend to lead to fanaticism, embracing a simplified and rigid view of social reality. I'm particularly wary of all the *-isms.
        fabianhjr 8y ago
        I shall warn you about nonideologism -ism then.
        alexandre_m 8y ago
        I can see that I sounded like I was one of those, but I have strong set of principles which lean toward some doctrines and yes, some ideologies in practice. My point was more to be cautious of those who are very strict from the theoretical side of the said ideologies in their purest form.
        austhrow743 8y ago
        A person should not believe in an ism. They should believe in themself.
        ixtli 8y ago
        If you read philosophy you'll find (happily, i think) that you're not alone in your thoughts and beliefs. Your whole mind is intertwined with thousands of years of development of those beliefs and the physical structures they created that then reinforce them. And in any case, you can't really do anything interesting alone so it's better, in my opinion, to believe in others.
    - tomlock 8y ago
      Ideologies are like accents. Everyone has one. For some people, that ideology is the rejection of ideologies unconditionally.
      - InitialLastName 8y ago
        Ooh, that's good. "Everyone has one, and they all sound incomprehensible to someone else".
        AndrewGaspar 8y ago
        As somebody with a neutral midwestern accent, I resent that statement. :)
    - fabianhjr 8y ago
      That is pure ideology, good luck being "non-ideological". http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ideology http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ideology
      - ixtli 8y ago
        It's a real shame I can't directly embed a gif of Zizek sniffing here.
    - ixtli 8y ago
      It's extremely dangerous to believe that its possible to not have an ideology. The idea that this is possible tends to come from whatever lets people think there's such a thing as "unbiased" or, indeed, that not applying ones biases is somehow a good goal.
- freen 8y ago
  I’d like to introduce you to the idea of stochastic terrorism. http://stochasticterrorism.blogspot.com/2011/01/stochastic-terrorism-part-1-triggering.html http://stochasticterrorism.blogspot.com/2011/01/stochastic-t...
  - ars 8y ago
    I looked into this once. There is no such thing. Please stop linking to articles promoting this discredited concept. Just because someone has an interesting idea doesn't make it true!
    - fixermark 8y ago
      It's definitely a thing. It simply goes by less-sexy names of "incitement" or "agitation." But by those monikers, it's not only a recognized process, it's a legal issue with ramifications. Osama bin Laden never killed anyone. His words were enough to justify his execution by the military of a foreign nation because he engaged in incitement.
      - erklik 8y ago
        > Osama bin Laden never killed anyone. His words were enough to justify his execution by the military of a foreign nation because he engaged in incitement. Although, I understand your point. However, and I would like to say that I do not know the details of this, OBL was originally charged with the killing of Silvan Becker, a German intelligence agent and his wife Vera in Libya. That was against him specifically. Now, I am not sure if he actually pulled the trigger or was involved in some other way.
        fixermark 8y ago
        Good point; I had forgotten his INTERPOL arrest call. But it's still worth observing that the US didn't invest in a Seal Team deployment to take down an INTERPOL fugitive.
    - Angostura 8y ago
- ixtli 8y ago
  I realize this might not be the best place to hash this out due to the format but I feel compelled to respond. I just encourage you personally to think about this matter holistically. That is, people dont do, say, and think things in a vacuum. They _inherit_ their notions and behaviors from their environment, and that's all I meant by "ideology." You can rest assured that when I use the word ideology I use it advisedly and after much thought. No matter what you believe, or what he believed, evil is only ever done by human hands and in this case those hands were moved by a world view and belief system that were outlined in a (absurd) 78+ page "manifesto." We can not afford to ignore this fact. Nor can we afford to ignore that as with any line of thinking about the world there are many other people who have adjacent and related beliefs. Yes, it might be the case that what makes people who think that way into killers is "nihilistic sociopath[y]" but the unfeeling among them are raised and encouraged by a whole community. That's the real reason why I think it's important to look past the incident in isolation and remember: This man has a community. We can't undo what happened but we can each individually make an effort to understand why people end up in that community, how to identify them, and hopefully how to keep our sons from ending up there in order to keep another such atrocity from happening again. Part of that is, as you say, by "wholesale-reject that outrageous, inhumane way of thinking". It just seems clear to me that it must be actively rejected. We must actively deplatform and remove people who parrot what he did from our community. To that end we must understand why it is and has been for hundreds of years so alluring to people that it leads a subset of them to some of the worst violence humanity perpetrates. The oppressed can never afford to ignore the beliefs and, yes, ideologies of their oppressors.

by ixtli 8y ago

What a horrible waste of a wonderful person. We should all do what we can to make sure society completely rejects the out-moded and dangerous ideology that caused this.

0815test 8y ago

You know, I might easily agree with you, except that this was not "caused" solely by ideology, and to believe this might be not only misleading, but also quite dangerous. The nihilistic sociopath who has perpetrated this heinous act would like nothing more than for people to increasingly magnify his vacuous, meaningless 'ideology', by which he clearly hoped to mislead the public into following his deranged delusion, that fame and self-aggrandizement for him might result from mindless murder; from destroying the best that life has to offer on this Earth. Let's not give him that, let's not fall into this trap he has cleverly laid out for us. We should simply wholesale-reject that outrageous, inhumane way of thinking, and not give it even that hint of dignity that this incredibly misleading term, "ideology", might imply.

tomlock 8y ago
We should still reject that ideology.
- alexandre_m 8y ago
  We should reject most, if not all, ideologies.
  - fwip 8y ago
    An ideology is just a system of values and ideas about the world. Everyone has one.
    - alexandre_m 8y ago
      To a certain extent yes, but unfortunately it's more than just a set of principles. Ideologies tend to lead to fanaticism, embracing a simplified and rigid view of social reality. I'm particularly wary of all the *-isms.
      - fabianhjr 8y ago
        I shall warn you about nonideologism -ism then.
        alexandre_m 8y ago
        I can see that I sounded like I was one of those, but I have strong set of principles which lean toward some doctrines and yes, some ideologies in practice. My point was more to be cautious of those who are very strict from the theoretical side of the said ideologies in their purest form.
      - austhrow743 8y ago
        A person should not believe in an ism. They should believe in themself.
        ixtli 8y ago
        If you read philosophy you'll find (happily, i think) that you're not alone in your thoughts and beliefs. Your whole mind is intertwined with thousands of years of development of those beliefs and the physical structures they created that then reinforce them. And in any case, you can't really do anything interesting alone so it's better, in my opinion, to believe in others.
  - tomlock 8y ago
    Ideologies are like accents. Everyone has one. For some people, that ideology is the rejection of ideologies unconditionally.
    - InitialLastName 8y ago
      Ooh, that's good. "Everyone has one, and they all sound incomprehensible to someone else".
      - AndrewGaspar 8y ago
        As somebody with a neutral midwestern accent, I resent that statement. :)
  - fabianhjr 8y ago
    That is pure ideology, good luck being "non-ideological". http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ideology http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ideology
    - ixtli 8y ago
      It's a real shame I can't directly embed a gif of Zizek sniffing here.
  - ixtli 8y ago
    It's extremely dangerous to believe that its possible to not have an ideology. The idea that this is possible tends to come from whatever lets people think there's such a thing as "unbiased" or, indeed, that not applying ones biases is somehow a good goal.
freen 8y ago
I’d like to introduce you to the idea of stochastic terrorism. http://stochasticterrorism.blogspot.com/2011/01/stochastic-terrorism-part-1-triggering.html http://stochasticterrorism.blogspot.com/2011/01/stochastic-t...
- ars 8y ago
  I looked into this once. There is no such thing. Please stop linking to articles promoting this discredited concept. Just because someone has an interesting idea doesn't make it true!
  - fixermark 8y ago
    It's definitely a thing. It simply goes by less-sexy names of "incitement" or "agitation." But by those monikers, it's not only a recognized process, it's a legal issue with ramifications. Osama bin Laden never killed anyone. His words were enough to justify his execution by the military of a foreign nation because he engaged in incitement.
    - erklik 8y ago
      > Osama bin Laden never killed anyone. His words were enough to justify his execution by the military of a foreign nation because he engaged in incitement. Although, I understand your point. However, and I would like to say that I do not know the details of this, OBL was originally charged with the killing of Silvan Becker, a German intelligence agent and his wife Vera in Libya. That was against him specifically. Now, I am not sure if he actually pulled the trigger or was involved in some other way.
      - fixermark 8y ago
        Good point; I had forgotten his INTERPOL arrest call. But it's still worth observing that the US didn't invest in a Seal Team deployment to take down an INTERPOL fugitive.
  - Angostura 8y ago
ixtli 8y ago
I realize this might not be the best place to hash this out due to the format but I feel compelled to respond. I just encourage you personally to think about this matter holistically. That is, people dont do, say, and think things in a vacuum. They _inherit_ their notions and behaviors from their environment, and that's all I meant by "ideology." You can rest assured that when I use the word ideology I use it advisedly and after much thought. No matter what you believe, or what he believed, evil is only ever done by human hands and in this case those hands were moved by a world view and belief system that were outlined in a (absurd) 78+ page "manifesto." We can not afford to ignore this fact. Nor can we afford to ignore that as with any line of thinking about the world there are many other people who have adjacent and related beliefs. Yes, it might be the case that what makes people who think that way into killers is "nihilistic sociopath[y]" but the unfeeling among them are raised and encouraged by a whole community. That's the real reason why I think it's important to look past the incident in isolation and remember: This man has a community. We can't undo what happened but we can each individually make an effort to understand why people end up in that community, how to identify them, and hopefully how to keep our sons from ending up there in order to keep another such atrocity from happening again. Part of that is, as you say, by "wholesale-reject that outrageous, inhumane way of thinking". It just seems clear to me that it must be actively rejected. We must actively deplatform and remove people who parrot what he did from our community. To that end we must understand why it is and has been for hundreds of years so alluring to people that it leads a subset of them to some of the worst violence humanity perpetrates. The oppressed can never afford to ignore the beliefs and, yes, ideologies of their oppressors.