4 ms·

Computer languages are called languages for a reason. They have syntax, grammar, vocabulary, and are used for communication. People who don't speak english for

Computer languages are called languages for a reason. They have syntax, grammar, vocabulary, and are used for communication. People who don't speak english for example but who read python can often read code you wrote and understand it. Math is a similar thing and sometimes called a universal language. These are different sorts of languages from day to day spoken and written languages for general communication, but they can be reasonably put in the same larger umbrella of language. Whether they should be applied to a graduation second language requirement is certainly debatable. Some school systems may reasonably say yes, others no. Of perhaps no doubt though is that at the present time, complete fluency/competency in a computer language is far more valuable to an individual than mastery of any language other than english. Given this, perhaps schools should instead consider dropping the foreign language requirements entirely and replacing them with requirements for fluency in at least one computer language.

oarabbus_ 8y ago
I don't agree with all of your claims anyways, but all of this seems to miss the key fact point the "foreign language" requirement inherently implies a language to communicate with other humans. Hence why Sign language can meet the foreign language requirement in some schools but not C++.
supergarfield 8y ago
> People who don't speak english for example but who read python can often read code you wrote and understand it. Math is a similar thing and sometimes called a universal language. I doubt that's true. It would be like reading re-prettified minified Javascript: they wouldn't understand the meaning of the identifiers or comments. That doesn't strictly make it impossible to understand the code, but it's much, much harder. It's the same for math, frankly: without explanations of what the things in equations are, or why the author is doing what they are doing, it's somewhere between very hard to understand (for the most formal stuff, like the Principia), and hopeless for most papers.
- bryondowd 8y ago
  Can confirm, dealing with code in a foreign language is not easy. A few years ago I had to re-implement from behavior in our application that had been baked into the firmware of our old printers, since the new ones were supposed to be off-the-shelf. We had the source code for the old printers, so no problem, right? Except the company that made them was French, so every comment was in French, and all the identifiers were not just French, but French abbreviations and acronyms mixed together. I could run the comments through Google translate and get a good enough idea, but there was almost nothing I could do about the identifiers, except occasionally get lucky and guess based on cognates. Can't imagine how it would have gone if the language was less similar, like any of the Asian languages. Thankfully, I didn't really need to refer to the source code often, since I could just work out the finer points of the behaviors I needed to mimic by printing messages that hit all the corner cases.
president 8y ago
> Of perhaps no doubt though is that at the present time, complete fluency/competency in a computer language is far more valuable to an individual than mastery of any language other than english. I think one of the main reasons foreign languages are required is because it's an attempt to connect people with the outside world. There are positive implications on diplomacy and politics when you have a generation of young people grow up being exposed to other cultures and (trying) to learn other languages. This is more important for the world than teaching every child how to become a slave to the computer.
maw 8y ago
Interesting point. My suggestion: use a programming language (any one you like) to explain why people who live in places where English isn't widely spoken would be better off learning English and/or a programming language.
simiones 8y ago
> Computer languages are called languages for a reason. They have syntax, grammar, vocabulary, and are used for communication. Perhaps, but they are vastly simpler than even the most basic human language; and far, far more limited in what they can communicate without resorting to another language. > People who don't speak english for example but who read python can often read code you wrote and understand it. That's extremely unlikely to be true - they could perhaps say if it has certain properties, but it is almost impossible to understand what a piece of code is meant to do without understanding any of the identifiers, unless it's doing something very abstract (e.g. you can understand what "def id(x): return x" does if you know some Python and nothing else; but you can't probably understand what "def cumÎlStrigă(om): return om.poreclă" is meant to do if you understand Python but not Romanian).
tracker1 8y ago
Communicate "Hello World!" in python without some sort of string that references another spoken language.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- yellowapple 8y ago
  # assuming Python3 print("\U0001F310\U0001F44B")
ng12 8y ago
> Math is a similar thing and sometimes called a universal language. But nobody is going seriously suggest put math classes in the languages department. How much different is learning Python from learning calculus? Both use specialized syntax, grammar, and vocabulary to describe ideas. If you categorize Python as a "foreign language" then calculus (and algebra, trig, etc) probably should be as well.

oarabbus_ 8y ago

I don't agree with all of your claims anyways, but all of this seems to miss the key fact point the "foreign language" requirement inherently implies a language to communicate with other humans. Hence why Sign language can meet the foreign language requirement in some schools but not C++.

supergarfield 8y ago

> People who don't speak english for example but who read python can often read code you wrote and understand it. Math is a similar thing and sometimes called a universal language. I doubt that's true. It would be like reading re-prettified minified Javascript: they wouldn't understand the meaning of the identifiers or comments. That doesn't strictly make it impossible to understand the code, but it's much, much harder. It's the same for math, frankly: without explanations of what the things in equations are, or why the author is doing what they are doing, it's somewhere between very hard to understand (for the most formal stuff, like the Principia), and hopeless for most papers.

bryondowd 8y ago
Can confirm, dealing with code in a foreign language is not easy. A few years ago I had to re-implement from behavior in our application that had been baked into the firmware of our old printers, since the new ones were supposed to be off-the-shelf. We had the source code for the old printers, so no problem, right? Except the company that made them was French, so every comment was in French, and all the identifiers were not just French, but French abbreviations and acronyms mixed together. I could run the comments through Google translate and get a good enough idea, but there was almost nothing I could do about the identifiers, except occasionally get lucky and guess based on cognates. Can't imagine how it would have gone if the language was less similar, like any of the Asian languages. Thankfully, I didn't really need to refer to the source code often, since I could just work out the finer points of the behaviors I needed to mimic by printing messages that hit all the corner cases.

president 8y ago

> Of perhaps no doubt though is that at the present time, complete fluency/competency in a computer language is far more valuable to an individual than mastery of any language other than english. I think one of the main reasons foreign languages are required is because it's an attempt to connect people with the outside world. There are positive implications on diplomacy and politics when you have a generation of young people grow up being exposed to other cultures and (trying) to learn other languages. This is more important for the world than teaching every child how to become a slave to the computer.

maw 8y ago

Interesting point. My suggestion: use a programming language (any one you like) to explain why people who live in places where English isn't widely spoken would be better off learning English and/or a programming language.

simiones 8y ago

> Computer languages are called languages for a reason. They have syntax, grammar, vocabulary, and are used for communication. Perhaps, but they are vastly simpler than even the most basic human language; and far, far more limited in what they can communicate without resorting to another language. > People who don't speak english for example but who read python can often read code you wrote and understand it. That's extremely unlikely to be true - they could perhaps say if it has certain properties, but it is almost impossible to understand what a piece of code is meant to do without understanding any of the identifiers, unless it's doing something very abstract (e.g. you can understand what "def id(x): return x" does if you know some Python and nothing else; but you can't probably understand what "def cumÎlStrigă(om): return om.poreclă" is meant to do if you understand Python but not Romanian).

tracker1 8y ago

Communicate "Hello World!" in python without some sort of string that references another spoken language.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
yellowapple 8y ago
# assuming Python3 print("\U0001F310\U0001F44B")

ng12 8y ago

> Math is a similar thing and sometimes called a universal language. But nobody is going seriously suggest put math classes in the languages department. How much different is learning Python from learning calculus? Both use specialized syntax, grammar, and vocabulary to describe ideas. If you categorize Python as a "foreign language" then calculus (and algebra, trig, etc) probably should be as well.