4 ms·

No, a significant part of it (in the UK) has definitely been stereotypes around Chinese food being somehow 'dodgy'. Clearly racism doesn't 'explain everything'

by jnty 8y ago

No, a significant part of it (in the UK) has definitely been stereotypes around Chinese food being somehow 'dodgy'. Clearly racism doesn't 'explain everything' and the forces you mention played a part, but you're the only one who brought up that strawman. (You should think carefully about why you're so desperate to disingenuously downplay the effects of racism on modern attitudes.)

thraway-burnout 8y ago
Disclaimer: I'm married to a Chinese person, I speak (some) Chinese, I've been to China. I love Chinese food. There's no racism in claiming that quite a lot of the "Chinese" food one finds available in Europe is indeed quite dodgy.
- LaGrange 8y ago
  > Disclaimer: I'm married to a Chinese person, I speak (some) Chinese, I've been to China. I love Chinese food. "I'm not racist some of my best friends are $race" in third comment on the page, congratulations!
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Having friends or even being married to X is a good sign to prove one is not racist towards X. The inverse idea, that this is somehow a bad argument, I can't even fathom how it started (and how messed the minds of those that think you must somehow be a racist if you make this argument are). (Sure, one can claim it hypocritically, just like everything else -- that doesn't mean the claim itself signals racism).
    - throwaway5t21 8y ago
      Except it just means you aren’t “racist” against a specific gender or that specific person. I’ve known plenty of expats in Asia that are married to a local, has mix-raced kids, and yet still says racist things about them. But their friends and family are “the good ones.” The Clippers former owner had a black girlfriend and paid his black players millions of dollars. He is still a racist.
  - thraway-burnout 8y ago
    Yeah, I'm actually a closet self-hating racist who built a family with someone I despise. Plus took the time to learn their culture, values, and language; and live my life accordingly. What a bunch of nonsense...
    - LaGrange 8y ago
      ...that's a much more common case than you seem to imply, and your insistence that your marriage choice is some sort of an argument here only increases the likelihood.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        The only reason the argument is somehow suspect, is because people can't say anything about a group of people that's not considered racist by some "professionally offended on behalf of others". Anything negative I mean. They might be OK with 100% praise (though even that has been accused of "idealizing" and other BS by the "professionally offended on behalf of others"). So people saying e.g. "I'm not racist against X, I have X friends, but statistically X cause most of Y (a bad thing)" are considered racist and their qualifier is seen as bogus or hypocritical. Even if statistically, according to accepted official numbers, X indeed cause most of Y.
        jerf 8y ago
        We really need to put a cultural moratorium/ban on being offended on behalf of others. I'm sure someone will pop up about how maybe the "others" are just too afraid to speak, but in practice I'm just not seeing that very often, but I am seeing a lot of people trying to basically culturally appropriate someone else's victimhood. And of course the people doing that are the most tedious and annoying spokespeople possible for whatever is being said.
        coldtea 8y ago
        What's worse is that most of these people do it for the because it's a fashion, harmless, gives you instant media credits. In the days when it was most needed (in the segregation times, when gay and AIDS was a dirty word, etc) only people with balls supported those minorities, and those people could not care less about BS "politically correct" names and such. Now, everybody and their dog support causes just because it's fashionable and scores them points. Such opportunists are worse than active bigots -- if Nazi's where in fashion, they'd score points by being nazis.
  - oliwarner 8y ago
    People should be encouraged to disclose their background and expertise when they speak on subjects. Especially when it highlights the difference between what people in the West refer to as "Chinese", and the food that people eat in China. But why have a sensible conversation about things when we can just hop up and down when we think we've found something we think might offend somebody.
  - dang 8y ago
    Instead of taking the discussion straight to toxic tropes, how about assuming good faith, as the guidelines ask? Here's the full version: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." They also ask you not to snark, and not to post flamebait. (And personal attacks, which you unfortunately crossed into in this thread, are right out.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- throwaway5t21 8y ago
  I wonder if this comment would be acceptable for other groups? Disclaimer: I'm married to a Jewish person, I speak (some) Hebrew, I've been to Israel. I love Jewish food. There's no racism in claiming that quite a lot of the "Jewish" banks one finds available in Europe is indeed quite dodgy.
Veen 8y ago
> You should think carefully about why you're so desperate to disingenuously downplay the effects of racism on modern attitudes Yes, because if you think something isn't caused by racism, then you must be racist. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap I don't see any sign of desperation or disingenuousness in the reply, but that's probably because I'm an unconscious racist too.
- jnty 8y ago
  He misrepresented the article. It does not claim that racism 'explains everything', merely that it was one of a number of factors which have led to the demonisation of MSG. That was a disingenous attempt to erase the effects of racism through ridicule.
  - Veen 8y ago
    The article provides no evidence that racism had anything to do with it. It links to a social history "study" which simply asserts it based on the existence of racism. It is disengenous to assume racism when there is no evidence of it being a causal factor. Additionally, the implication in the comment I replied to was that the commentor must have hidden motivations, probably racist ones, for denying the influence of racism. That is a piece of obnoxious mind-reading that stifles reasonable dialogue.
SiVal 8y ago
"You should think carefully about why you're so desperate to disingenuously downplay the effects of racism on modern attitudes" After thinking carefully, shall I craft a letter of self-criticism and denounce myself? Or maybe denounce all white people? My family spent time in Chinese Communist re-education camps being "educated" on the latest in leftist intellectual fashion back in the 1960s because they weren't a favored "class" under the leftist intellectual fashion of the time. (They were land owners back when class enemies were defined by land ownership, not race, so Marxist justice theory said they were a criminal class who deserved to die, but the fact that they were too poor ever to commit the "crime" of giving someone a job working their land but were forced to work the land themselves qualified them, under the Maoist contributions to leftist justice theory, to be "re-educated" instead of being murdered. If they could just convince their political overseers that they hated themselves and the other members of their enemy class enough--like white people denouncing white people today in the West--their lives would be spared by the enlightened.) How ironic to be accused of being "desperate to disingenuously downplay the effects of [white] racism [against the Chinese]" by the same kinds of leftist ideologues who put my [Chinese] family in the re-education camps for violations of the ephemeral leftist intellectual fashions of the day. Once again, leftist intellectual fashion may be ever-changing but--make no mistake--it's always right! I must say how incredibly lucky it feels to have lived long enough for intellectual fashion, so ridiculously wrong about so many things again and again, to finally have landed on The Real Truth.
dang 8y ago
Personal attacks are not ok on HN and we ban accounts that cross into that zone repeatedly. Can you please edit such bits out in the future? Your comment makes your point just fine without that last sentence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by jnty 8y ago

thraway-burnout 8y ago

Disclaimer: I'm married to a Chinese person, I speak (some) Chinese, I've been to China. I love Chinese food. There's no racism in claiming that quite a lot of the "Chinese" food one finds available in Europe is indeed quite dodgy.

LaGrange 8y ago
> Disclaimer: I'm married to a Chinese person, I speak (some) Chinese, I've been to China. I love Chinese food. "I'm not racist some of my best friends are $race" in third comment on the page, congratulations!
- coldtea 8y ago
  Having friends or even being married to X is a good sign to prove one is not racist towards X. The inverse idea, that this is somehow a bad argument, I can't even fathom how it started (and how messed the minds of those that think you must somehow be a racist if you make this argument are). (Sure, one can claim it hypocritically, just like everything else -- that doesn't mean the claim itself signals racism).
  - throwaway5t21 8y ago
    Except it just means you aren’t “racist” against a specific gender or that specific person. I’ve known plenty of expats in Asia that are married to a local, has mix-raced kids, and yet still says racist things about them. But their friends and family are “the good ones.” The Clippers former owner had a black girlfriend and paid his black players millions of dollars. He is still a racist.
- thraway-burnout 8y ago
  Yeah, I'm actually a closet self-hating racist who built a family with someone I despise. Plus took the time to learn their culture, values, and language; and live my life accordingly. What a bunch of nonsense...
  - LaGrange 8y ago
    ...that's a much more common case than you seem to imply, and your insistence that your marriage choice is some sort of an argument here only increases the likelihood.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      The only reason the argument is somehow suspect, is because people can't say anything about a group of people that's not considered racist by some "professionally offended on behalf of others". Anything negative I mean. They might be OK with 100% praise (though even that has been accused of "idealizing" and other BS by the "professionally offended on behalf of others"). So people saying e.g. "I'm not racist against X, I have X friends, but statistically X cause most of Y (a bad thing)" are considered racist and their qualifier is seen as bogus or hypocritical. Even if statistically, according to accepted official numbers, X indeed cause most of Y.
      - jerf 8y ago
        We really need to put a cultural moratorium/ban on being offended on behalf of others. I'm sure someone will pop up about how maybe the "others" are just too afraid to speak, but in practice I'm just not seeing that very often, but I am seeing a lot of people trying to basically culturally appropriate someone else's victimhood. And of course the people doing that are the most tedious and annoying spokespeople possible for whatever is being said.
        coldtea 8y ago
        What's worse is that most of these people do it for the because it's a fashion, harmless, gives you instant media credits. In the days when it was most needed (in the segregation times, when gay and AIDS was a dirty word, etc) only people with balls supported those minorities, and those people could not care less about BS "politically correct" names and such. Now, everybody and their dog support causes just because it's fashionable and scores them points. Such opportunists are worse than active bigots -- if Nazi's where in fashion, they'd score points by being nazis.
- oliwarner 8y ago
  People should be encouraged to disclose their background and expertise when they speak on subjects. Especially when it highlights the difference between what people in the West refer to as "Chinese", and the food that people eat in China. But why have a sensible conversation about things when we can just hop up and down when we think we've found something we think might offend somebody.
- dang 8y ago
  Instead of taking the discussion straight to toxic tropes, how about assuming good faith, as the guidelines ask? Here's the full version: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." They also ask you not to snark, and not to post flamebait. (And personal attacks, which you unfortunately crossed into in this thread, are right out.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
throwaway5t21 8y ago
I wonder if this comment would be acceptable for other groups? Disclaimer: I'm married to a Jewish person, I speak (some) Hebrew, I've been to Israel. I love Jewish food. There's no racism in claiming that quite a lot of the "Jewish" banks one finds available in Europe is indeed quite dodgy.

Veen 8y ago

> You should think carefully about why you're so desperate to disingenuously downplay the effects of racism on modern attitudes Yes, because if you think something isn't caused by racism, then you must be racist. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap I don't see any sign of desperation or disingenuousness in the reply, but that's probably because I'm an unconscious racist too.

jnty 8y ago
He misrepresented the article. It does not claim that racism 'explains everything', merely that it was one of a number of factors which have led to the demonisation of MSG. That was a disingenous attempt to erase the effects of racism through ridicule.
- Veen 8y ago
  The article provides no evidence that racism had anything to do with it. It links to a social history "study" which simply asserts it based on the existence of racism. It is disengenous to assume racism when there is no evidence of it being a causal factor. Additionally, the implication in the comment I replied to was that the commentor must have hidden motivations, probably racist ones, for denying the influence of racism. That is a piece of obnoxious mind-reading that stifles reasonable dialogue.

SiVal 8y ago

"You should think carefully about why you're so desperate to disingenuously downplay the effects of racism on modern attitudes" After thinking carefully, shall I craft a letter of self-criticism and denounce myself? Or maybe denounce all white people? My family spent time in Chinese Communist re-education camps being "educated" on the latest in leftist intellectual fashion back in the 1960s because they weren't a favored "class" under the leftist intellectual fashion of the time. (They were land owners back when class enemies were defined by land ownership, not race, so Marxist justice theory said they were a criminal class who deserved to die, but the fact that they were too poor ever to commit the "crime" of giving someone a job working their land but were forced to work the land themselves qualified them, under the Maoist contributions to leftist justice theory, to be "re-educated" instead of being murdered. If they could just convince their political overseers that they hated themselves and the other members of their enemy class enough--like white people denouncing white people today in the West--their lives would be spared by the enlightened.) How ironic to be accused of being "desperate to disingenuously downplay the effects of [white] racism [against the Chinese]" by the same kinds of leftist ideologues who put my [Chinese] family in the re-education camps for violations of the ephemeral leftist intellectual fashions of the day. Once again, leftist intellectual fashion may be ever-changing but--make no mistake--it's always right! I must say how incredibly lucky it feels to have lived long enough for intellectual fashion, so ridiculously wrong about so many things again and again, to finally have landed on The Real Truth.

dang 8y ago

Personal attacks are not ok on HN and we ban accounts that cross into that zone repeatedly. Can you please edit such bits out in the future? Your comment makes your point just fine without that last sentence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html