7 ms·

As a slight aside from the premise of the article, I was reminded of a story my friend once told me. He is a policeman, and works with the Water Police departm

As a slight aside from the premise of the article, I was reminded of a story my friend once told me. He is a policeman, and works with the Water Police department in our town. One day, they got a call from some dirt bikers who were riding in the mangroves beaches across the bay that they had found two skeletons partially buried in the mud. As per standard procedures, a police patrol was dispatched to investigate (which included my friend), and also as per SOP, because the area was a known ancient Aboriginal burial ground, they took an anthropologist out with them as part of the investigative team. When they got to the site and were approaching the two semi exposed skeletons, the anthropologist said (while still a few feet away from them) "Oh, these pre date local colonial settlement and are probably over a hundred years old". My policeman friend was curious, and asked her how she could tell even from afar that these were not more current remains, and she said "It's the teeth. There is absolutely no sign of decay caused by sugars in modern diets". He (and I) never realised the extent of damage done to our teeth by what we eat today.

refurb 8y ago
Two thoughts: 1. They really are no sugar in aboriginal societies? No fruit or carbs? 2. I know a handful of people who eat Western diets who have zero tooth decay. Doesn’t seem like a great way to tell the age of a skull.
- thoughtstheseus 8y ago
  1. Significantly less. 2. That's great to hear.
  - smallnamespace 8y ago
    To expand on (1.), modern cultivated fruit varieties are quite different from what wild fruits are seasonally available—for one thing, you're always competing with wild animals for a sugary, tasty snack. Here's a somewhat fascinating article looking at both sides of this debate: https://deniseminger.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/ https://deniseminger.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/ The conclusion to me seems to be that unless you're in the tropics, you almost certainly be eating less fruit, and the fruit you'll eat will be much more varied and seasonal. A lot of the wild fruit you eat may have specific defenses (tannins, alkaloids, etc.) that discourage you from eating too much (the fruit's job is to make you spread and excrete its seeds, after all).
- SteveCoast 8y ago
  "Doesn’t seem like a great way to tell the age of a skull." The confidence of people far away at a different time without any relevant knowledge to dismiss an experienced local on the ground based on flawed high-level logic never ceases to surprise.
  - intertextuality 8y ago
    It's the epitome of hacker news. Reddit also has this "armchair quarterbacking" effect, but it's significantly worse on HN, in my opinion. A lot of the people here are knowledgeable—in specific domains. I think people forget that being an expert in one thing doesn't make you qualified to judge, understand, or discuss another domain in depth. Case in point, the recent "tech that reduces sound by 94%" post that got upvoted here.
    - imjustsaying 8y ago
      One of the most common instances of generalized experts weighing in on topics they're not actually experts in happens in politically-related posts here, although it usually only comes in the form of downvotes. You can cite science and demographic facts while leaving out your own overt normative opinions, yet you will still get downvoted from both 'sides' who think they are being slighted if you don't give a clear opinion. Unfortunately this is the way scientific method-driven experts talk (and generally anyone who's into political science rather than political opinion) - but in this domain it really sets non-experts off for some reason. The thing is, most people are taught at a young age that their political opinion matters a lot, which probably has something to do with generalized experts walking into this domain thinking they're already experts and getting quickly frustrated when they realize they're not, lashing out at the source of that frustration via downvotes. Back in the day the responses to these kinds of topics used to be via comments, now it's almost always via drive-by downvotes. I used to bemoan the inane buzzword replies back in the forum days because they were typically boring and predictable, but they were still infinitely better than the downvote without comment that is the norm for this site (and even more common on reddit).
      - 8y ago
- andrei_says_ 8y ago
  He most likely meant refined sugars. Sugar is being added to most foods nowadays. The timeline of cheap refined sugar is the timeline of sugar addiction and tooth decay.
  - refurb 8y ago
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/06/tooth-decay-archaeology/4307319/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/06/tooth-... Scientists examined the remains of 52 adults who had lived between roughly 12,000 and 13,000 B.C. and were buried in the cave. An astonishing 49 of them, or 94%, had cavities, which affected more than half of the surviving teeth.
    - richcollins 8y ago
      By analyzing plant remains in the cave, Humphrey's team found that residents ate lots of a particularly sweet type of acorn, which becomes soft and sticky when cooked. They also ate wild oats and legumes. Such foods can lead to serious decay,
      - refurb 8y ago
        Yes, and wild oats and legumes don’t exactly seem like the exception in ancient diets. Plus another link in this thread claims ancient fruits have different sugars that don’t cause decay.
    - andrei_says_ 8y ago
      Are you trying to imply that refined sugars do not cause an increase in tooth decay? Or that fruit sugar is similar to refined sugars? Any ties with the sugar lobbby famous for lobbying the US government into blackmailing the WHO in increasing the amounts “healthy” sugar in their dietary guidelines?
      - Mirioron 8y ago
        "Refined sugar" is sugar in fruit. It is literally the same thing. That's how we get sugar in the first place - from plants. You are dealing with glucose, fructose, and sucrose in both cases.
- ajdlinux 8y ago
  > Doesn’t seem like a great way to tell the age of a skull. Going to take a guess and say that a brief glance at the teeth is probably not the _only_ age determination method they applied before determining their course of action.
  - refurb 8y ago
    and asked her how she could tell even from afar that these were not more current remains
    - ajdlinux 8y ago
      Right, and then after making that initial assessment, I'm going to guess they didn't just stop walking, write out and sign the incident report and pull out the radio to let the station know that they were pretty much done here and there's nothing to worry about. No, I assume they walked up to it and got a more conclusive look at the body first.
- skrebbel 8y ago
  I'm not sure I've ever seen a better example of classic HN-style "middlebrow dismissal" than this comment. I want to print it and frame it.
logicallee 8y ago
Thanks for sharing this story.
_red 8y ago
This is totally anecdotal, but we have a family friend who is an undertaker in a small town. He claims bodies today rot at a slower rate then when he started in the 50's. His theory is that its the preservatives in food.
- aswanson 8y ago
  I legit laughed at that. Morbid humor.
- wumms 8y ago
  The changes in sensing time while growing old are said to work in the other direction, so he might be on to something. :) Also, the moisture level in the soil might have changed. Or the funeral homes got better at selling varnished coffins instead of pine boxes.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    And at selling embalming as a standard and expected part of the process. For the UK at least: - Varnished coffins are usually very thin veneer on top of mainly particle board - the glue is as problematic as any varnish, and add pollution to cremation. US coffins are commonly steel(!) apparently. "Brass" fittings are usually plastic, and not removed before cremation as you might expect. - Embalming is so much an expected part you're not asked, it's just done. You'd have to already know it's not required and you may ask for no embalming. In former years it was common to have the coffin at home for a few days - with no embalming. Not that long ago either. - Mind boggling amounts of formaldehyde (and other chemicals) are used by the funeral industry. Source: Going too far down this rabbit hole and ultimately choosing a natural green funeral for me.
    - mcv 8y ago
      Burial in a wicker coffin in a forest somewhere has always appealed more to me than all these chemicals. I want to feed worms and trees after I die, not pollute the earth even more.

refurb 8y ago

Two thoughts: 1. They really are no sugar in aboriginal societies? No fruit or carbs? 2. I know a handful of people who eat Western diets who have zero tooth decay. Doesn’t seem like a great way to tell the age of a skull.

thoughtstheseus 8y ago
1. Significantly less. 2. That's great to hear.
- smallnamespace 8y ago
  To expand on (1.), modern cultivated fruit varieties are quite different from what wild fruits are seasonally available—for one thing, you're always competing with wild animals for a sugary, tasty snack. Here's a somewhat fascinating article looking at both sides of this debate: https://deniseminger.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/ https://deniseminger.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/ The conclusion to me seems to be that unless you're in the tropics, you almost certainly be eating less fruit, and the fruit you'll eat will be much more varied and seasonal. A lot of the wild fruit you eat may have specific defenses (tannins, alkaloids, etc.) that discourage you from eating too much (the fruit's job is to make you spread and excrete its seeds, after all).
SteveCoast 8y ago
"Doesn’t seem like a great way to tell the age of a skull." The confidence of people far away at a different time without any relevant knowledge to dismiss an experienced local on the ground based on flawed high-level logic never ceases to surprise.
- intertextuality 8y ago
  It's the epitome of hacker news. Reddit also has this "armchair quarterbacking" effect, but it's significantly worse on HN, in my opinion. A lot of the people here are knowledgeable—in specific domains. I think people forget that being an expert in one thing doesn't make you qualified to judge, understand, or discuss another domain in depth. Case in point, the recent "tech that reduces sound by 94%" post that got upvoted here.
  - imjustsaying 8y ago
    One of the most common instances of generalized experts weighing in on topics they're not actually experts in happens in politically-related posts here, although it usually only comes in the form of downvotes. You can cite science and demographic facts while leaving out your own overt normative opinions, yet you will still get downvoted from both 'sides' who think they are being slighted if you don't give a clear opinion. Unfortunately this is the way scientific method-driven experts talk (and generally anyone who's into political science rather than political opinion) - but in this domain it really sets non-experts off for some reason. The thing is, most people are taught at a young age that their political opinion matters a lot, which probably has something to do with generalized experts walking into this domain thinking they're already experts and getting quickly frustrated when they realize they're not, lashing out at the source of that frustration via downvotes. Back in the day the responses to these kinds of topics used to be via comments, now it's almost always via drive-by downvotes. I used to bemoan the inane buzzword replies back in the forum days because they were typically boring and predictable, but they were still infinitely better than the downvote without comment that is the norm for this site (and even more common on reddit).
    - 8y ago
andrei_says_ 8y ago
He most likely meant refined sugars. Sugar is being added to most foods nowadays. The timeline of cheap refined sugar is the timeline of sugar addiction and tooth decay.
- refurb 8y ago
  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/06/tooth-decay-archaeology/4307319/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/06/tooth-... Scientists examined the remains of 52 adults who had lived between roughly 12,000 and 13,000 B.C. and were buried in the cave. An astonishing 49 of them, or 94%, had cavities, which affected more than half of the surviving teeth.
  - richcollins 8y ago
    By analyzing plant remains in the cave, Humphrey's team found that residents ate lots of a particularly sweet type of acorn, which becomes soft and sticky when cooked. They also ate wild oats and legumes. Such foods can lead to serious decay,
    - refurb 8y ago
      Yes, and wild oats and legumes don’t exactly seem like the exception in ancient diets. Plus another link in this thread claims ancient fruits have different sugars that don’t cause decay.
  - andrei_says_ 8y ago
    Are you trying to imply that refined sugars do not cause an increase in tooth decay? Or that fruit sugar is similar to refined sugars? Any ties with the sugar lobbby famous for lobbying the US government into blackmailing the WHO in increasing the amounts “healthy” sugar in their dietary guidelines?
    - Mirioron 8y ago
      "Refined sugar" is sugar in fruit. It is literally the same thing. That's how we get sugar in the first place - from plants. You are dealing with glucose, fructose, and sucrose in both cases.
ajdlinux 8y ago
> Doesn’t seem like a great way to tell the age of a skull. Going to take a guess and say that a brief glance at the teeth is probably not the _only_ age determination method they applied before determining their course of action.
- refurb 8y ago
  and asked her how she could tell even from afar that these were not more current remains
  - ajdlinux 8y ago
    Right, and then after making that initial assessment, I'm going to guess they didn't just stop walking, write out and sign the incident report and pull out the radio to let the station know that they were pretty much done here and there's nothing to worry about. No, I assume they walked up to it and got a more conclusive look at the body first.
skrebbel 8y ago
I'm not sure I've ever seen a better example of classic HN-style "middlebrow dismissal" than this comment. I want to print it and frame it.

logicallee 8y ago

Thanks for sharing this story.

_red 8y ago

This is totally anecdotal, but we have a family friend who is an undertaker in a small town. He claims bodies today rot at a slower rate then when he started in the 50's. His theory is that its the preservatives in food.

aswanson 8y ago
I legit laughed at that. Morbid humor.
wumms 8y ago
The changes in sensing time while growing old are said to work in the other direction, so he might be on to something. :) Also, the moisture level in the soil might have changed. Or the funeral homes got better at selling varnished coffins instead of pine boxes.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  And at selling embalming as a standard and expected part of the process. For the UK at least: - Varnished coffins are usually very thin veneer on top of mainly particle board - the glue is as problematic as any varnish, and add pollution to cremation. US coffins are commonly steel(!) apparently. "Brass" fittings are usually plastic, and not removed before cremation as you might expect. - Embalming is so much an expected part you're not asked, it's just done. You'd have to already know it's not required and you may ask for no embalming. In former years it was common to have the coffin at home for a few days - with no embalming. Not that long ago either. - Mind boggling amounts of formaldehyde (and other chemicals) are used by the funeral industry. Source: Going too far down this rabbit hole and ultimately choosing a natural green funeral for me.
  - mcv 8y ago
    Burial in a wicker coffin in a forest somewhere has always appealed more to me than all these chemicals. I want to feed worms and trees after I die, not pollute the earth even more.