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Surgical masks don't protect you against airborne viruses, but if you wear one when you have a cold it does help protect other people from viruses in your snot/

Surgical masks don't protect you against airborne viruses, but if you wear one when you have a cold it does help protect other people from viruses in your snot/water particles. The facts about this are fairly well known in Japan now (although there may still be people who wear masks in the misguided hope that they won't catch other people's colds despite), so it's not very accurate to try to imply that use of surgical masks in Japan is purely due to some sort of failure to understand germ theory or something like that.

tjbiddle 8y ago
"The reality is that the woven-cloth surgical masks provide minimal protection from environmental viruses anyway. (Surgeons use them to protect patients from their mouth-borne germs, not the other way around.)" This is stated multiple times in the article.
fiblye 8y ago
And if ever you visit Japan, you’ll see a significant number of people pull down their masks to unleash their coughs and sneezes completely uncovered in a crowded area. Covering coughs and sneezes isn’t really a concept here, and when it’s done, it’s done with bare hands which most people don’t wash during their bathroom visits. People wear masks here during pollen season or handling dusty/dirty things, to indicate to others that they may be sick, or to soak up their runny nose drippings. But for the most part, like many aspects of society, they serve only a decorative purpose.
- chrischen 8y ago
  That is not characteristic of why they wear masks. And at least a lot of other less crowded parts of Asia are just meme-ing Japn, as they do for a lot of other stuff as well. I was on a short trip there and caught a cold, and an okder businessman gave me one of his masks because he saw I was struggling to contain my coughs with just my hands. It gets very crowded in Tokyo, so these masks are essential during cold and flu season.
  - DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
    In my region's public elementary schools, kids are taught to "vampire cough". I wonder how it's effectiveness compares to that of wearing a mask.
    - JohnFen 8y ago
      This has been studied. Coughing into your elbow is better than coughing into your hands, but not as good as wearing a mask. Wearing a mask doesn't completely protect the people around you (unless you're using something more than just a basic surgical/dust/pollen mask), but it does help a lot.
- thisismyaccoun7 8y ago
  That's pretty interesting. I don't know anything about Japan really, but having lived in Korea, I can say with certainty that Koreans wear masks when they are sick to prevent spreading it to other people and not for decorative purpose. If you have even the slightest sniffle or cough and don't wear one, people are going to think negatively of you. I've never seen someone pull their mask down to cough or sneeze. A more recent development is decorative designs, and that's been popularized a bit by kpop stars in music videos, but no one wears a mask in Korea in real life just for decoration. The only time outside that is when yellow sand is bad.
Razengan 8y ago
They also serve privacy purposes and have also become a rather cool fashion accessory: [0] http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=face+mask+fashion http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=face+mask+fashion I think they will go quite nicely with decorated AR glasses once those become commonplace, for a combination that would thwart mass face-detection once that's commonplace as well.
rhacker 8y ago
My wife stays the FUCK away from people wearing them - she thinks they are all ebola carriers. I think that alone is what keeps the mask wearers healthy - all the americans think the mask wearer is the sick one.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- marcus_holmes 8y ago
  that's absolutely true. Well, not the ebola part. It's one of the examples I use to demonstrate differences between Western and Eastern culture: in the West we would only wear a mask if we were worried about being infected with other people's germs. In the East they wear a mask to indicate that they are unwell and to stop other people from being infected with their germs.
  - m-p-3 8y ago
    Yeah, wearing a mask won't really protect you from catchin something, but it will reduce the odds of you transmitting the disease to others around you.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  She would avoid me like the plague during allergy season, then! If I don't wear a pollen mask during that time, I will literally never stop sneezing.
fyfy18 8y ago
Kind of a tangent, but in Japan what's the situation with taking time off work if you are ill and sick pay?
- apsdsm 8y ago
  Depending on the company you either take personal leave, dipping into your paid vacation, or you have a day worth of pay reduced from your salary. The companies that give you actual sick days are rare, but thankfully more of them are popping up as the old guard changes. one notable exception from memory is that kids coming here to teach English get unusually cushy conditions.
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    Just a quick comment: as I noted in my other post it is normal for companies to give 20 days of sick leave. Often you can't take them, though ;-) I don't know a single person working as an employee of a large company in Japan that doesn't get 20 days of sick leave. But those stresses are very important. Most foreigners do not get permanent jobs and are not employees. They are contract workers, who get no sick leave. The number of contract workers in Japan is growing, though.
    - JohnFen 8y ago
      So in that sense, it's a bit like my experience in the software industry? My experience is that while people get a set amount of PTO per year, they rarely take it. Not because it's disapproved of, but because of the price you have to pay in work backlog when you return.
    - apsdsm 8y ago
      This is very true. I’m the last few jobs I worked here the ratio of full time to contract was shifting significantly to contract (though working in IT my perspective may be skewed). Is also worth nothing that work laws in Japan are flimsy at best do “black” companies get away with a lot of shady stuff. Even if you have 20 days leave on paper, depending on the company the corporate culture can be very pushy about your not taking them. I lucked out a few times and found places that were good about it.. but I’ve heard some real horror stories :/
cm2187 8y ago
And does it work? Like is there a materially lower prevalence of cold/flu in Japan than in countries of similar climate?
- bpyne 8y ago
  It could be done more out of politeness than effectiveness in reducing transmission. It would make a lot of sense in places with a high population density.
chongli 8y ago
Surgical masks don't protect you against airborne viruses Maybe not, but they should be great at protecting you from tiny droplets of fluid (above a certain size) from coughing and sneezing. I would think that alone should cut down on the risk of getting sick.
- hannasanarion 8y ago
  That's what "airborne" means. Nobody thinks viruses are riding nitrogen molecules.
vorpalhex 8y ago
Our local clinic in the US has actually started a policy of asking visitors to wear masks if they think they might be sick. Seems sensible enough.
- tapland 8y ago
  That sounds great. It's horrible being in public transport (Europe) with a compromised immune system. Two weeks after I went on my medicine someone walked past in a close to empty train and sneezed big lumps of snot onto my face.
- duxup 8y ago
  Every hospital and clinic has them available at the entrance where I am in the US. I'd be curious how effective any of this is, but that would be hard to test.
  - tomjen3 8y ago
    Get a sample of ill people, compare the amounts of particles excreted in to the air with and without the mask. You will require a decent sized n, but it doesn’t seem insanely high.
FabHK 8y ago
I came to say the same thing. From my understanding, people in HK wear the mask largely to protect their colleagues and friends when they themselves are sick (or even potentially sick, eg when one of their family is). The article didn't delve sufficiently into that, and even implied the opposite motivation with a (snide) parenthesis ("(Surgeons use them to protect patients from their mouth-borne germs, not the other way around.)").
- JohnFen 8y ago
  I believe that the parenthetical comment wasn't intended to be snide, and wasn't trying to imply that Eastern mask-wearers don't understand this. I think it was more to explain it to Western readers, as this is something that is very commonly misunderstood, at least in the US.
  - FabHK 8y ago
    Ah, maybe you're right.

tjbiddle 8y ago

"The reality is that the woven-cloth surgical masks provide minimal protection from environmental viruses anyway. (Surgeons use them to protect patients from their mouth-borne germs, not the other way around.)" This is stated multiple times in the article.

fiblye 8y ago

And if ever you visit Japan, you’ll see a significant number of people pull down their masks to unleash their coughs and sneezes completely uncovered in a crowded area. Covering coughs and sneezes isn’t really a concept here, and when it’s done, it’s done with bare hands which most people don’t wash during their bathroom visits. People wear masks here during pollen season or handling dusty/dirty things, to indicate to others that they may be sick, or to soak up their runny nose drippings. But for the most part, like many aspects of society, they serve only a decorative purpose.

chrischen 8y ago
That is not characteristic of why they wear masks. And at least a lot of other less crowded parts of Asia are just meme-ing Japn, as they do for a lot of other stuff as well. I was on a short trip there and caught a cold, and an okder businessman gave me one of his masks because he saw I was struggling to contain my coughs with just my hands. It gets very crowded in Tokyo, so these masks are essential during cold and flu season.
- DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
  In my region's public elementary schools, kids are taught to "vampire cough". I wonder how it's effectiveness compares to that of wearing a mask.
  - JohnFen 8y ago
    This has been studied. Coughing into your elbow is better than coughing into your hands, but not as good as wearing a mask. Wearing a mask doesn't completely protect the people around you (unless you're using something more than just a basic surgical/dust/pollen mask), but it does help a lot.
thisismyaccoun7 8y ago
That's pretty interesting. I don't know anything about Japan really, but having lived in Korea, I can say with certainty that Koreans wear masks when they are sick to prevent spreading it to other people and not for decorative purpose. If you have even the slightest sniffle or cough and don't wear one, people are going to think negatively of you. I've never seen someone pull their mask down to cough or sneeze. A more recent development is decorative designs, and that's been popularized a bit by kpop stars in music videos, but no one wears a mask in Korea in real life just for decoration. The only time outside that is when yellow sand is bad.

Razengan 8y ago

They also serve privacy purposes and have also become a rather cool fashion accessory: [0] http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=face+mask+fashion http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=face+mask+fashion I think they will go quite nicely with decorated AR glasses once those become commonplace, for a combination that would thwart mass face-detection once that's commonplace as well.

rhacker 8y ago

My wife stays the FUCK away from people wearing them - she thinks they are all ebola carriers. I think that alone is what keeps the mask wearers healthy - all the americans think the mask wearer is the sick one.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
marcus_holmes 8y ago
that's absolutely true. Well, not the ebola part. It's one of the examples I use to demonstrate differences between Western and Eastern culture: in the West we would only wear a mask if we were worried about being infected with other people's germs. In the East they wear a mask to indicate that they are unwell and to stop other people from being infected with their germs.
- m-p-3 8y ago
  Yeah, wearing a mask won't really protect you from catchin something, but it will reduce the odds of you transmitting the disease to others around you.
JohnFen 8y ago
She would avoid me like the plague during allergy season, then! If I don't wear a pollen mask during that time, I will literally never stop sneezing.

fyfy18 8y ago

Kind of a tangent, but in Japan what's the situation with taking time off work if you are ill and sick pay?

apsdsm 8y ago
Depending on the company you either take personal leave, dipping into your paid vacation, or you have a day worth of pay reduced from your salary. The companies that give you actual sick days are rare, but thankfully more of them are popping up as the old guard changes. one notable exception from memory is that kids coming here to teach English get unusually cushy conditions.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  Just a quick comment: as I noted in my other post it is normal for companies to give 20 days of sick leave. Often you can't take them, though ;-) I don't know a single person working as an employee of a large company in Japan that doesn't get 20 days of sick leave. But those stresses are very important. Most foreigners do not get permanent jobs and are not employees. They are contract workers, who get no sick leave. The number of contract workers in Japan is growing, though.
  - JohnFen 8y ago
    So in that sense, it's a bit like my experience in the software industry? My experience is that while people get a set amount of PTO per year, they rarely take it. Not because it's disapproved of, but because of the price you have to pay in work backlog when you return.
  - apsdsm 8y ago
    This is very true. I’m the last few jobs I worked here the ratio of full time to contract was shifting significantly to contract (though working in IT my perspective may be skewed). Is also worth nothing that work laws in Japan are flimsy at best do “black” companies get away with a lot of shady stuff. Even if you have 20 days leave on paper, depending on the company the corporate culture can be very pushy about your not taking them. I lucked out a few times and found places that were good about it.. but I’ve heard some real horror stories :/

cm2187 8y ago

And does it work? Like is there a materially lower prevalence of cold/flu in Japan than in countries of similar climate?

bpyne 8y ago
It could be done more out of politeness than effectiveness in reducing transmission. It would make a lot of sense in places with a high population density.

chongli 8y ago

Surgical masks don't protect you against airborne viruses Maybe not, but they should be great at protecting you from tiny droplets of fluid (above a certain size) from coughing and sneezing. I would think that alone should cut down on the risk of getting sick.

hannasanarion 8y ago
That's what "airborne" means. Nobody thinks viruses are riding nitrogen molecules.

vorpalhex 8y ago

Our local clinic in the US has actually started a policy of asking visitors to wear masks if they think they might be sick. Seems sensible enough.

tapland 8y ago
That sounds great. It's horrible being in public transport (Europe) with a compromised immune system. Two weeks after I went on my medicine someone walked past in a close to empty train and sneezed big lumps of snot onto my face.
duxup 8y ago
Every hospital and clinic has them available at the entrance where I am in the US. I'd be curious how effective any of this is, but that would be hard to test.
- tomjen3 8y ago
  Get a sample of ill people, compare the amounts of particles excreted in to the air with and without the mask. You will require a decent sized n, but it doesn’t seem insanely high.

FabHK 8y ago

I came to say the same thing. From my understanding, people in HK wear the mask largely to protect their colleagues and friends when they themselves are sick (or even potentially sick, eg when one of their family is). The article didn't delve sufficiently into that, and even implied the opposite motivation with a (snide) parenthesis ("(Surgeons use them to protect patients from their mouth-borne germs, not the other way around.)").

JohnFen 8y ago
I believe that the parenthetical comment wasn't intended to be snide, and wasn't trying to imply that Eastern mask-wearers don't understand this. I think it was more to explain it to Western readers, as this is something that is very commonly misunderstood, at least in the US.
- FabHK 8y ago
  Ah, maybe you're right.