5 ms·

I really wish people would wait for the report before drawing conclusions like this. These investigations take a long time, and it's often not the issue that ge

by gok 8y ago

I really wish people would wait for the report before drawing conclusions like this. These investigations take a long time, and it's often not the issue that gets circulated on Twitter. AirAsia 8501 was widely suspected to be caused by a thunderstorm. Wired [1] and WaPo [2] still have articles up blaming the weather. When the investigation came out a year later, it turned out to have nothing to do with weather. The fly-by-wire system malfunctioned and the pilots got confused. [1] https://www.wired.com/2014/12/airasia-qz8501-thunderstorms/ https://www.wired.com/2014/12/airasia-qz8501-thunderstorms/ [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2014/12/28/the-challenging-weather-conditions-when-airasia-flight-8501-disappeared/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/...

the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
The analogy does not make much sense because the majority of what is in this twitter thread is not new information or disputed. We also know that boeing is fixing it by a software patch already.
- gok 8y ago
  All we know is that they're issuing a software update. We don't know that this update actually addresses what caused the crashes.
  - irq11 8y ago
    ...or that the crashes are related. Too many people are skipping the step where the cause of the second crash is actually determined. This twitter thread, in particular, is just summarizing information available in news articles, and leaping to the conclusion that crash #2 is the same or related to crash #1.
    - gist 8y ago
      And how exactly does someone reading this twitter thread know that?
    - dmix 8y ago
      The report for crash #1 isn't even out yet. Let alone #2, which hasn't even had it's blackbox fully analyzed.
- losvedir 8y ago
  Eh, we still don't really know if MCAS is the cause of the Ethiopian crash, though. Some things point to it (flight fluctuating up and down, jackscrew found with full nose down trim), but some things are different, too, like crazy acceleration and handling issues right from takeoff, when the flaps would still be up and MCAS inactive.
  - spectramax 8y ago
    Even if it Egyptian Air didn't crash their plane, Lion Air investigation alone exemplifies systemic negligence, not from the software standpoint, but from the top-down executive level and the negligence of the FAA. So, your point is valid about that we need to wait for Egyptian Air's investigation, but misplaced because of the aforementioned argument.
    - croisillon 8y ago
      *Ethiopian
- RandomTisk 8y ago
  Wanting to make a better and cheaper jet isn't at all controversial, though the twitter thread seems to try to make it appear so.
- salex89 8y ago
  We still don't know whether the pilots reacted properly or not. We don't know even if they had the time to react properly. These tweets are written with some assumptions, but correct, in general.
- macspoofing 8y ago
  What do you mean? The entire thing is conjecture. We just don't know if there was even an issue. It's possible that the two accidents were uncorrelated. It's possible that the software worked perfectly but the pilots made wrong decisions. It's possible that the software worked perfectly but pilots panicked because they were unaware of what was happening. It's possible the software was at fault .. and on and on ... He also claimed that there was a sensor problem. Are we sure about that? I have a hard time believing that a critical system would rely on one sensor to function properly. These things are built like space shuttles - with multiple redundancies and a fail-over strategy. At the end of the day, we just don't know. Smart people are trying to figure it out, and we'll get to the bottom of it. Let's just wait a bit. >Boeing sells an option package that includes an extra AoA vane, and an AoA disagree light, which lets pilots know that this problem was happening. Both 737MAXes that crashed were delivered without this option. No 737MAX with this option has ever crashed. Jesus. What an atrocious statement.
blattimwind 8y ago
> The fly-by-wire system malfunctioned and the pilots got confused. The Wikipedia summary of the investigation report sounds quite a bit different. It says there was an intermittent malfunction that could be cleared by following a procedure, which was done three times during the flight, with no impact on flight safety (AIUI). The fourth time, instead of following procedure, the pilot toggled the flight computer's circuit breaker, which he is not allowed to do in flight, which reset the flight computer completely, disabling various automated systems that they would now have to re-start, which they did not do. Then the plane entered a stall and due to communication issues pilot and co-pilot gave contradictory control inputs which resulted in no control input to the plane.

by gok 8y ago

the_mitsuhiko 8y ago

The analogy does not make much sense because the majority of what is in this twitter thread is not new information or disputed. We also know that boeing is fixing it by a software patch already.

gok 8y ago
All we know is that they're issuing a software update. We don't know that this update actually addresses what caused the crashes.
- irq11 8y ago
  ...or that the crashes are related. Too many people are skipping the step where the cause of the second crash is actually determined. This twitter thread, in particular, is just summarizing information available in news articles, and leaping to the conclusion that crash #2 is the same or related to crash #1.
  - gist 8y ago
    And how exactly does someone reading this twitter thread know that?
  - dmix 8y ago
    The report for crash #1 isn't even out yet. Let alone #2, which hasn't even had it's blackbox fully analyzed.
losvedir 8y ago
Eh, we still don't really know if MCAS is the cause of the Ethiopian crash, though. Some things point to it (flight fluctuating up and down, jackscrew found with full nose down trim), but some things are different, too, like crazy acceleration and handling issues right from takeoff, when the flaps would still be up and MCAS inactive.
- spectramax 8y ago
  Even if it Egyptian Air didn't crash their plane, Lion Air investigation alone exemplifies systemic negligence, not from the software standpoint, but from the top-down executive level and the negligence of the FAA. So, your point is valid about that we need to wait for Egyptian Air's investigation, but misplaced because of the aforementioned argument.
  - croisillon 8y ago
    *Ethiopian
RandomTisk 8y ago
Wanting to make a better and cheaper jet isn't at all controversial, though the twitter thread seems to try to make it appear so.
salex89 8y ago
We still don't know whether the pilots reacted properly or not. We don't know even if they had the time to react properly. These tweets are written with some assumptions, but correct, in general.
macspoofing 8y ago
What do you mean? The entire thing is conjecture. We just don't know if there was even an issue. It's possible that the two accidents were uncorrelated. It's possible that the software worked perfectly but the pilots made wrong decisions. It's possible that the software worked perfectly but pilots panicked because they were unaware of what was happening. It's possible the software was at fault .. and on and on ... He also claimed that there was a sensor problem. Are we sure about that? I have a hard time believing that a critical system would rely on one sensor to function properly. These things are built like space shuttles - with multiple redundancies and a fail-over strategy. At the end of the day, we just don't know. Smart people are trying to figure it out, and we'll get to the bottom of it. Let's just wait a bit. >Boeing sells an option package that includes an extra AoA vane, and an AoA disagree light, which lets pilots know that this problem was happening. Both 737MAXes that crashed were delivered without this option. No 737MAX with this option has ever crashed. Jesus. What an atrocious statement.

blattimwind 8y ago

> The fly-by-wire system malfunctioned and the pilots got confused. The Wikipedia summary of the investigation report sounds quite a bit different. It says there was an intermittent malfunction that could be cleared by following a procedure, which was done three times during the flight, with no impact on flight safety (AIUI). The fourth time, instead of following procedure, the pilot toggled the flight computer's circuit breaker, which he is not allowed to do in flight, which reset the flight computer completely, disabling various automated systems that they would now have to re-start, which they did not do. Then the plane entered a stall and due to communication issues pilot and co-pilot gave contradictory control inputs which resulted in no control input to the plane.