9 ms·

Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right

267 points by longdefeat 8y ago

LeanderK 8y ago
is there no illustration what it may have looked like? I have no idea what they are talking about but it sounds interesting...
- cryptonector 8y ago
  https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u... page 11
stalled 8y ago
previous publication about this shipwreck by the same author, with illustrations: Alexander Belov (2014) A New Type of Construction Evidenced by Ship 17 of Thonis-Heracleion https://www.academia.edu/4452101/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by_Ship_17_of_Heracleion-Thonis https://www.academia.edu/4452101/A_new_type_of_construction_... https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u...
- lucb1e 8y ago
  For those looking for a quick overview, the diagram on page 11 nicely shows the internal ribs OP's article talks about.
- tejtm 8y ago
  'download with facebook" OR "download with google" An astounding set of choices with which to transfer TCP/IP packets if I do say so myself. cough sci-hub has doi 10.1111/1095-9270.12078 cough
  - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
    I don’t like everything about Richard Stallman but damn was his wiriting (in the 90’s!) about this trend prescient. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
dstroot 8y ago
One of the main points of the article was that although Herodotus described what he saw know one could turn his words into a mental picture. In other words until we actually found a wreck and could observe how it was built did we come to understand that Herodotus’ description was accurate. BUT THEY DONT PUT A PICTURE OR DIAGRAM IN THE ARTICLE. They pulled a “Herodotus” on us and I am pissed.
- ijidak 8y ago
  Haha. Felt the same!!! Can we get a 3d model, please! It sounds like it's a very unique architecture! But all they show us is a row of numbered underwater planks!
- shakna 8y ago
  Thankfully the paper [0] has a ton of diagrams and photos. [0] https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u...
- hyperpallium 8y ago
  I felt this at uni a few times. I can't understand what they mean until I already understand it myself. Why didn't they just explain it like that in the first place? Oh. They did.
herodotus 8y ago
Reading Herodotus' "The Histories" was life altering for me - I highly recomend it - but you MUST read a quality translation. I read the translation by Robin Waterfield. There are other good translations. What you should not do is download any old version you find online. Bad translations ruin the book.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- zwkrt 8y ago
  Can you elaborate on why it was so impactful?
  - herodotus 8y ago
    I think everdrive captures it well: the ancient text most of us are exposed to in childhood is the bible (or other religious texts). I forgave a lot, because I just imagined that people were like that back then: gullible, ignorant, lacking in a critical approach. When you read Herodotus, it is like sitting in a room with a modern fabulous story teller. He is thoughtful, critical, sarcastic, skeptical and amusing. In short, a thoroughly modern person. The stories themselves are of course compelling too - the epic struggles between Greece and Persia. But it is the sense of intelligence that comes through. As I said, for me, life altering.
    - mrsharpoblunto 8y ago
      Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History podcast has a whole series on the Persian empire (King’s of King’s) that draws heavily from Herodotus. It gets quite meta in places with a lot of time dedicated to Herodotus and his storytelling style, and he ends up as one of the more fascinating characters in the story itself. Dan likens him to a modern day screenwriter with a sense for drama and emotion that previous historians lacked and that reading Herodotus vs earlier records is in some ways like the difference between the black and white silent film era and modern cinema.
    - acqq 8y ago
curtis 8y ago
This reminded me of the Uluburun shipwreck[1]. This ship was built using "pegged mortise-and-tenon joints"[2]. It's not entirely clear how the Nile ship's construction was different -- as another commenter mentioned, it would have been nice if they'd included a diagram. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluburun_shipwreck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluburun_shipwreck [2] https://nauticalarch.org/projects/uluburun-late-bronze-age-shipwreck-excavation/ https://nauticalarch.org/projects/uluburun-late-bronze-age-s...
- dan-robertson 8y ago
  Just looking at the pictures it seems the Uluburun ship was made with long planks the length of the ship whereas the ship in the OP is made with 2 cubit (approx 1.5ft) planks mortice and tennoned together. The ships are also just different. The one in OP was about 25m long, flatter, made for the Nile and, it seems, of a kind described by Herodotus. The Uluburun ship was about 10m long, less flat, made for the Mediterranean, likely not made in Egypt, and several hundred years older.
- cryptonector 8y ago
  Page 11 of https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u... has a very nice diagram.
  - afterburner 8y ago
    Also top of page 7 for a close up of a tenon rib.
boulos 8y ago
For all of those who missed the picture: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/17/nile-shipwreck-herodotus-archaeologists-thonis-heraclion#img-2 https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/17/nile-shipwre... though I still find it confusing (I think it’s just the bottom of the hull).
- cryptonector 8y ago
  See page 11 of https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u...
codazoda 8y ago
I really enjoy this type of article; technical facts about history. I'm also reminded that I miss similar stories from National Geohraphic. Finally, I'm impressed by the method of monetization The Guardian has opted to use while I loathe the paywall option others are pushing these days. I just added Nation Geographic to the "Idle" bookmark folder I use to catch up on interesting facts during short breaks from my work. Now I'm off to contribute to The Guardian.
- frosted-flakes 8y ago
  Just out of interest, how many people actually contribute to The Guardian? Is depending on reader donations a sustainable business model? Apart from Wikipedia, are there other publications that also follow this approach? I was contemplating paying them a couple bucks, because I am quite impressed with the quality of their publication—at least the parts I've read. The plea for support at the end is almost as long as the article itself, and it's very convincing: We made a choice… … and we want to tell you about it. We made a choice which means our journalism now reaches record numbers around the world and more than a million people have supported our reporting. We continue to face financial challenges but, unlike many news organisations, we have chosen not to put up a paywall. We want our journalism to remain accessible to all, regardless of where they live or what they can afford. This is The Guardian’s model for open, independent journalism: available for everyone, funded by our readers. We depend on contributions from our readers. Will you support our choice? Readers’ support powers our work, safeguarding our essential editorial independence. This means the responsibility of protecting independent journalism is shared, enabling us all to feel empowered to bring about real change in the world. Your support gives Guardian journalists the time, space and freedom to report with tenacity and rigour, to shed light where others won’t. It emboldens us to challenge authority and question the status quo. And by keeping all of our journalism free and open to all, we can foster inclusivity, diversity, make space for debate, inspire conversation – so more people have access to accurate information with integrity at its heart. Guardian journalism is rooted in facts with a progressive perspective on the world. We are editorially independent, meaning we set our own agenda. Our journalism is free from commercial bias and not influenced by billionaire owners, politicians or shareholders. No one steers our opinion. At a time when there are so few sources of information you can really trust, this is vital as it enables us to give a voice to those less heard, challenge the powerful and hold them to account. Your support means we can keep investigating and exploring the critical issues of our time. Our model allows people to support us in a way that works for them. Every time a reader like you makes a contribution to The Guardian, no matter how big or small, it goes directly into funding our journalism. But we need to build on this support for the years ahead. Support The Guardian from as little as CA$1 – and it only takes a minute. Thank you.
wl 8y ago
If anyone is interested in seeing other artifacts from this "dig", the Minneapolis Institute of Art has a special exhibit entitled "Egypt's Sunken Cities" through April 14th of this year. One Egyptologist I know saw the exhibit in St. Louis and says it's the most spectacular ancient Egyptian exhibit he's ever seen.
contingencies 8y ago
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarakonteres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarakonteres and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamegos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamegos
sunstone 8y ago
One of those occasions where a clear picture really would be worth a thousand words.
- cryptonector 8y ago
  Page 11 of: https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
caprese 8y ago
Aside "well that 2500 yr old manuscript happened to mention this type of ship" why is this significant?

267 points by longdefeat 8y ago

is there no illustration what it may have looked like? I have no idea what they are talking about but it sounds interesting...

cryptonector 8y ago
https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u... page 11

stalled 8y ago

previous publication about this shipwreck by the same author, with illustrations: Alexander Belov (2014) A New Type of Construction Evidenced by Ship 17 of Thonis-Heracleion https://www.academia.edu/4452101/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by_Ship_17_of_Heracleion-Thonis https://www.academia.edu/4452101/A_new_type_of_construction_... https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u...

lucb1e 8y ago
For those looking for a quick overview, the diagram on page 11 nicely shows the internal ribs OP's article talks about.
tejtm 8y ago
'download with facebook" OR "download with google" An astounding set of choices with which to transfer TCP/IP packets if I do say so myself. cough sci-hub has doi 10.1111/1095-9270.12078 cough
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  I don’t like everything about Richard Stallman but damn was his wiriting (in the 90’s!) about this trend prescient. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

dstroot 8y ago

One of the main points of the article was that although Herodotus described what he saw know one could turn his words into a mental picture. In other words until we actually found a wreck and could observe how it was built did we come to understand that Herodotus’ description was accurate. BUT THEY DONT PUT A PICTURE OR DIAGRAM IN THE ARTICLE. They pulled a “Herodotus” on us and I am pissed.

ijidak 8y ago
Haha. Felt the same!!! Can we get a 3d model, please! It sounds like it's a very unique architecture! But all they show us is a row of numbered underwater planks!
shakna 8y ago
Thankfully the paper [0] has a ton of diagrams and photos. [0] https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u...
hyperpallium 8y ago
I felt this at uni a few times. I can't understand what they mean until I already understand it myself. Why didn't they just explain it like that in the first place? Oh. They did.

herodotus 8y ago

Reading Herodotus' "The Histories" was life altering for me - I highly recomend it - but you MUST read a quality translation. I read the translation by Robin Waterfield. There are other good translations. What you should not do is download any old version you find online. Bad translations ruin the book.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
zwkrt 8y ago
Can you elaborate on why it was so impactful?
- herodotus 8y ago
  I think everdrive captures it well: the ancient text most of us are exposed to in childhood is the bible (or other religious texts). I forgave a lot, because I just imagined that people were like that back then: gullible, ignorant, lacking in a critical approach. When you read Herodotus, it is like sitting in a room with a modern fabulous story teller. He is thoughtful, critical, sarcastic, skeptical and amusing. In short, a thoroughly modern person. The stories themselves are of course compelling too - the epic struggles between Greece and Persia. But it is the sense of intelligence that comes through. As I said, for me, life altering.
  - mrsharpoblunto 8y ago
    Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History podcast has a whole series on the Persian empire (King’s of King’s) that draws heavily from Herodotus. It gets quite meta in places with a lot of time dedicated to Herodotus and his storytelling style, and he ends up as one of the more fascinating characters in the story itself. Dan likens him to a modern day screenwriter with a sense for drama and emotion that previous historians lacked and that reading Herodotus vs earlier records is in some ways like the difference between the black and white silent film era and modern cinema.
  - acqq 8y ago

curtis 8y ago

This reminded me of the Uluburun shipwreck[1]. This ship was built using "pegged mortise-and-tenon joints"[2]. It's not entirely clear how the Nile ship's construction was different -- as another commenter mentioned, it would have been nice if they'd included a diagram. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluburun_shipwreck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluburun_shipwreck [2] https://nauticalarch.org/projects/uluburun-late-bronze-age-shipwreck-excavation/ https://nauticalarch.org/projects/uluburun-late-bronze-age-s...

dan-robertson 8y ago
Just looking at the pictures it seems the Uluburun ship was made with long planks the length of the ship whereas the ship in the OP is made with 2 cubit (approx 1.5ft) planks mortice and tennoned together. The ships are also just different. The one in OP was about 25m long, flatter, made for the Nile and, it seems, of a kind described by Herodotus. The Uluburun ship was about 10m long, less flat, made for the Mediterranean, likely not made in Egypt, and several hundred years older.
cryptonector 8y ago
Page 11 of https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u... has a very nice diagram.
- afterburner 8y ago
  Also top of page 7 for a close up of a tenon rib.

boulos 8y ago

For all of those who missed the picture: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/17/nile-shipwreck-herodotus-archaeologists-thonis-heraclion#img-2 https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/17/nile-shipwre... though I still find it confusing (I think it’s just the bottom of the hull).

cryptonector 8y ago
See page 11 of https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u...

codazoda 8y ago

I really enjoy this type of article; technical facts about history. I'm also reminded that I miss similar stories from National Geohraphic. Finally, I'm impressed by the method of monetization The Guardian has opted to use while I loathe the paywall option others are pushing these days. I just added Nation Geographic to the "Idle" bookmark folder I use to catch up on interesting facts during short breaks from my work. Now I'm off to contribute to The Guardian.

frosted-flakes 8y ago
Just out of interest, how many people actually contribute to The Guardian? Is depending on reader donations a sustainable business model? Apart from Wikipedia, are there other publications that also follow this approach? I was contemplating paying them a couple bucks, because I am quite impressed with the quality of their publication—at least the parts I've read. The plea for support at the end is almost as long as the article itself, and it's very convincing: We made a choice… … and we want to tell you about it. We made a choice which means our journalism now reaches record numbers around the world and more than a million people have supported our reporting. We continue to face financial challenges but, unlike many news organisations, we have chosen not to put up a paywall. We want our journalism to remain accessible to all, regardless of where they live or what they can afford. This is The Guardian’s model for open, independent journalism: available for everyone, funded by our readers. We depend on contributions from our readers. Will you support our choice? Readers’ support powers our work, safeguarding our essential editorial independence. This means the responsibility of protecting independent journalism is shared, enabling us all to feel empowered to bring about real change in the world. Your support gives Guardian journalists the time, space and freedom to report with tenacity and rigour, to shed light where others won’t. It emboldens us to challenge authority and question the status quo. And by keeping all of our journalism free and open to all, we can foster inclusivity, diversity, make space for debate, inspire conversation – so more people have access to accurate information with integrity at its heart. Guardian journalism is rooted in facts with a progressive perspective on the world. We are editorially independent, meaning we set our own agenda. Our journalism is free from commercial bias and not influenced by billionaire owners, politicians or shareholders. No one steers our opinion. At a time when there are so few sources of information you can really trust, this is vital as it enables us to give a voice to those less heard, challenge the powerful and hold them to account. Your support means we can keep investigating and exploring the critical issues of our time. Our model allows people to support us in a way that works for them. Every time a reader like you makes a contribution to The Guardian, no matter how big or small, it goes directly into funding our journalism. But we need to build on this support for the years ahead. Support The Guardian from as little as CA$1 – and it only takes a minute. Thank you.

wl 8y ago

If anyone is interested in seeing other artifacts from this "dig", the Minneapolis Institute of Art has a special exhibit entitled "Egypt's Sunken Cities" through April 14th of this year. One Egyptologist I know saw the exhibit in St. Louis and says it's the most spectacular ancient Egyptian exhibit he's ever seen.

contingencies 8y ago

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarakonteres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarakonteres and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamegos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamegos

sunstone 8y ago

One of those occasions where a clear picture really would be worth a thousand words.

cryptonector 8y ago
Page 11 of: https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-content/u...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

caprese 8y ago

Aside "well that 2500 yr old manuscript happened to mention this type of ship" why is this significant?