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How is anyone supposed to take this seriously? They used an extremely simple psychology study to backup their massive claim that "Everything is luck'. Can I s

How is anyone supposed to take this seriously? They used an extremely simple psychology study to backup their massive claim that "Everything is luck'. Can I similarly use bad data? An anecdote- There are hard working people, and there are people that would rather not. After 5 years of this, I've seen the difference in outcomes. After 10 years, we literally have class differences between the people that are workaholics and lazy. Not to say there aren't politics involved. But to call modern society luck based is ridiculous.

chongli 8y ago
Why do people have such a hard time accepting this? People readily accept that it's luck for someone to grow to 7 feet tall and become an elite basketball player. Yes, it still takes a lot of hard work to reach the NBA and not everyone that tall makes it, but no amount of hard work can turn a 6 foot tall person into a 7-footer. I see no reason not to think that everything else about a person is similarly determined by luck, even the fact that someone is a hard worker at all. I think the biggest myth of all, in Western society, is the myth of laziness. Spend a little time talking to anyone that society brands as lazy (i.e. pot-smoking video gamers) and what you'll find is a discouraged and disillusioned person. What we call "laziness" is really learned helplessness in response to an ever-increasingly complex and unfair society. If every trait associated with success (intelligence, conscientiousness, grit, drive, determination, etc) were as visible as height, we'd have a much harder time justifying the labelling of people as "lazy."
- commandlinefan 8y ago
  I think we all agree that growing tall is “lucky” (and genetic), but there’s no controversy around accepting the tallest people into the NBA, so it’s not a discussion point. There IS controversy around sorting by intelligence.
- dexen 8y ago
  >the myth of laziness If anything, there is a myth of "hard work" as a singular trait that a person has or doesn't have. And then "laziness" is described as contrast to that. So is "hard work" a singular trait? Quite the opposite; there are numerous aspects of work that make it more or less good, helpful, interesting, and otherwise valuable to the person and to others. The work may be fast, or may be energy efficient. The work may be very precise, or may span huge scales. The work may be incredibly complex, or may have been simplified to surprising degree. It may be artsy, or may be highly professional. All those, and much, much more, can add to & improve utility of the work. Skill, education, proper time & place, those too aren't singular aspects, nor stem from singular events in life or singular traits of the person. Every aspect of work is built up from from, frankly, the whole life history of the person. You cannot separate, say, having good education from being in the right place at the right time, but also from having good contact with the right people (your peers that help you out); from being able to communicate well but also letting others talk when proper. And so much more. Trying to distill education - or any other aspect really - down to "got lucky at this junction in time" is just disingenuous. Moreover, closer investigation of examples of "good luck" reveals that often it is result of others - particularly parents, family, friends - putting in considerable effort to help the person through life. Creating educational opportunity or connecting with other people. Good physical development via nutrition and exercise, just as well as fostering curiosity and ethics. Passing on experience or helping choose best fit career path. There's nothing shameful about having been helped by friends and family - if anything, it's both natural and praiseworthy. And those positive behaviors are likely to be passed along to subsequent generations, thus progressing humanity in the longer run. >no amount of hard work can turn a 6 foot tall person into a 7-footer. Have you ever wondered how many players under 6 feet had good professional careers in NBA? You would be surprised [1]. There is a myth of "hard work" as a singular thing, while, in fact, a work is good for the person and others for any number of reasons. And, conversely, "laziness" is lacking in several departments at once to the point that there's few people helped by the "lazy" person's actions. -- [1] https://www.ranker.com/list/shortest-nba-players-of-all-time/ranker-nba https://www.ranker.com/list/shortest-nba-players-of-all-time...
  - robertAngst 8y ago
    This really is a 2D question. I will not deny that a low income and low education people would find it a massive upfront cost to learn how to code and be ambitious. The question I'm more interested is among educated people. (or among people that grew up low income) There is a gap between Engineering workaholics and Engineering workers.
  - Data_Junkie 8y ago
    Right, laziness is a term used for " doesn't do what I want ".
- towaway1138 8y ago
  Maybe so, but I still want a surgeon who's going to get the job done. http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/ http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-yo...
  - chongli 8y ago
    That's completely fine. I would never say that the stoner video gamer should be your surgeon. I just don't think it's fair to call such a person "lazy" and dismiss them out of hand, as so many are apt to do. This person needs help to find some meaning in their life and it is not at all trivial how to do this. The more complicated society gets, the harder it is for people to keep up with it.
- Data_Junkie 8y ago
  Yes, there is no such thing as laziness. It's a bizarre concept in that the closest thing that exists to the meaning of the word is actual belief in the delusion that it exists. Laziness is a thing like darkness is a thing, ask most if darkness exists and they will say of course it does, we can see it.
- neoburkian 8y ago
  If intelligence, conscientiousness, grit, drive, determination, etc were as visible as height, it would be immediately obvious why some people succeed and others fail. These traits are not evenly distributed. Some have them in spades, others don't. The real myth is that "everyone has the capacity for success," and people who don't have success are "kept down by the system." These are feel good stories. If the only thing keeping everyone from eudaimonia is a broken system, then we fix the system and, presto, everything is great. The hard pill to swallow is that differential life outcomes stem largely from differential capacities. https://www.amazon.com/Blank-Slate-Modern-Denial-Nature/dp/0142003344/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+blank+slate&qid=1552838102&s=gateway&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Blank-Slate-Modern-Denial-Nature/dp/0...

chongli 8y ago

Why do people have such a hard time accepting this? People readily accept that it's luck for someone to grow to 7 feet tall and become an elite basketball player. Yes, it still takes a lot of hard work to reach the NBA and not everyone that tall makes it, but no amount of hard work can turn a 6 foot tall person into a 7-footer. I see no reason not to think that everything else about a person is similarly determined by luck, even the fact that someone is a hard worker at all. I think the biggest myth of all, in Western society, is the myth of laziness. Spend a little time talking to anyone that society brands as lazy (i.e. pot-smoking video gamers) and what you'll find is a discouraged and disillusioned person. What we call "laziness" is really learned helplessness in response to an ever-increasingly complex and unfair society. If every trait associated with success (intelligence, conscientiousness, grit, drive, determination, etc) were as visible as height, we'd have a much harder time justifying the labelling of people as "lazy."

commandlinefan 8y ago
I think we all agree that growing tall is “lucky” (and genetic), but there’s no controversy around accepting the tallest people into the NBA, so it’s not a discussion point. There IS controversy around sorting by intelligence.
dexen 8y ago
>the myth of laziness If anything, there is a myth of "hard work" as a singular trait that a person has or doesn't have. And then "laziness" is described as contrast to that. So is "hard work" a singular trait? Quite the opposite; there are numerous aspects of work that make it more or less good, helpful, interesting, and otherwise valuable to the person and to others. The work may be fast, or may be energy efficient. The work may be very precise, or may span huge scales. The work may be incredibly complex, or may have been simplified to surprising degree. It may be artsy, or may be highly professional. All those, and much, much more, can add to & improve utility of the work. Skill, education, proper time & place, those too aren't singular aspects, nor stem from singular events in life or singular traits of the person. Every aspect of work is built up from from, frankly, the whole life history of the person. You cannot separate, say, having good education from being in the right place at the right time, but also from having good contact with the right people (your peers that help you out); from being able to communicate well but also letting others talk when proper. And so much more. Trying to distill education - or any other aspect really - down to "got lucky at this junction in time" is just disingenuous. Moreover, closer investigation of examples of "good luck" reveals that often it is result of others - particularly parents, family, friends - putting in considerable effort to help the person through life. Creating educational opportunity or connecting with other people. Good physical development via nutrition and exercise, just as well as fostering curiosity and ethics. Passing on experience or helping choose best fit career path. There's nothing shameful about having been helped by friends and family - if anything, it's both natural and praiseworthy. And those positive behaviors are likely to be passed along to subsequent generations, thus progressing humanity in the longer run. >no amount of hard work can turn a 6 foot tall person into a 7-footer. Have you ever wondered how many players under 6 feet had good professional careers in NBA? You would be surprised [1]. There is a myth of "hard work" as a singular thing, while, in fact, a work is good for the person and others for any number of reasons. And, conversely, "laziness" is lacking in several departments at once to the point that there's few people helped by the "lazy" person's actions. -- [1] https://www.ranker.com/list/shortest-nba-players-of-all-time/ranker-nba https://www.ranker.com/list/shortest-nba-players-of-all-time...
- robertAngst 8y ago
  This really is a 2D question. I will not deny that a low income and low education people would find it a massive upfront cost to learn how to code and be ambitious. The question I'm more interested is among educated people. (or among people that grew up low income) There is a gap between Engineering workaholics and Engineering workers.
- Data_Junkie 8y ago
  Right, laziness is a term used for " doesn't do what I want ".
towaway1138 8y ago
Maybe so, but I still want a surgeon who's going to get the job done. http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/ http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-yo...
- chongli 8y ago
  That's completely fine. I would never say that the stoner video gamer should be your surgeon. I just don't think it's fair to call such a person "lazy" and dismiss them out of hand, as so many are apt to do. This person needs help to find some meaning in their life and it is not at all trivial how to do this. The more complicated society gets, the harder it is for people to keep up with it.
Data_Junkie 8y ago
Yes, there is no such thing as laziness. It's a bizarre concept in that the closest thing that exists to the meaning of the word is actual belief in the delusion that it exists. Laziness is a thing like darkness is a thing, ask most if darkness exists and they will say of course it does, we can see it.
neoburkian 8y ago
If intelligence, conscientiousness, grit, drive, determination, etc were as visible as height, it would be immediately obvious why some people succeed and others fail. These traits are not evenly distributed. Some have them in spades, others don't. The real myth is that "everyone has the capacity for success," and people who don't have success are "kept down by the system." These are feel good stories. If the only thing keeping everyone from eudaimonia is a broken system, then we fix the system and, presto, everything is great. The hard pill to swallow is that differential life outcomes stem largely from differential capacities. https://www.amazon.com/Blank-Slate-Modern-Denial-Nature/dp/0142003344/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+blank+slate&qid=1552838102&s=gateway&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Blank-Slate-Modern-Denial-Nature/dp/0...