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People, even dual citizens, are often under the mistaken impression that having another citizenship is a "get out of jail free" card for the obligations of the

People, even dual citizens, are often under the mistaken impression that having another citizenship is a "get out of jail free" card for the obligations of the other one. This is very much not the case.

donretag 8y ago
Exactly. I am an American citizen, but was still drafted into another country's army.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  What happens if you are in a conflict with the United States?
  - sharpneli 8y ago
    It might depend on country but I can tell how it works in Finland. If you are in Finnish army then you will fight against your other country. But Finnish army doesnt allow being member of multiple armies. So if you have gone trough, as an example, US service Finnish army wont accept you. And if you go to US army after gaining rank in Finnish army you lose the Finnish rank and are just a civilian.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      Interesting. The reason I'm asking this is because I faintly recall my parents saying that they were asked if they'd fight for the United States when they applied for their citizenship if they ever went to war against their (previous) home country, so I'm curious if there's differences in what they ask you if you are applying for a dual citizenship.
      - clamprecht 8y ago
        What was your parents' answer?
        saagarjha 8y ago
        Yes, of course ;)
int_19h 8y ago
In many cases it is, so long as you stay away from the other jurisdiction. In this case, though, it's not that he had such an impression. It's that he didn't know he was a Korean citizen. If draft is a social contract, what do you call a contract where one of the parties never consented to it and wasn't even aware that someone signed them up without their consent, and then the other party tries to enforce it?
- askmike 8y ago
  Citizenship is not about consent. There might be situations where you can out of yours, but I don't think that means that everyone else consents. That said I don't agree with how it works.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    Citizenship is at least opt-out in general. Some countries don't let you do it at all, and most make it complicated and expensive, but still. For adults, that's an option if you're unhappy with taxes, laws etc. But if you're born a citizen in a country with conscription, then you're underage - and thus unable to opt-out on your own, even if you could somehow afford it - until you're 18. And then they hand you the summons.
    - jogjayr 8y ago
      > Citizenship is at least opt-out in general. Only if you're able to obtain another citizenship. I don't think any country will allow renunciation if it leaves you stateless.
      - int_19h 8y ago
        Most countries don't, but some do; USA is one of them.
- pawelmurias 8y ago
  An involuntary social construct like the contract that you have to choose either your money or your life.
jfk13 8y ago
Indeed. It's quite explicit, for example, in the British government's information on "Support for British nationals abroad": "If you have some connection with another country – for example, by birth, by descent through either parent, by marriage or by residence – you may be a national of that country as well as being a British national. ... You may still have certain responsibilities with that country, such as compulsory military service."
maze-le 8y ago
The worst of it is, some states don't let you rescind your citizenship at all. I know at least 2 Iranian born citizens of my country, that cannot travel to their family and former friends anymore because of this -- Turkey seems to enforce steps in this regard too lately. Citizenship status should be "opt-in" not "opt-out" or "no option" at all.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Why? Why should other countries accept a Western conception of citizenship as disclaimable? Those other countries are not colonies of anyone, they’re sovereign, they can do as they like and if other countries disagree they can go to war or use some of the other methods countries use to resolved disagreements.
  - maze-le 8y ago
    Each individual should have the choice to live in the society they want, that is equally true the other way around -- I don't see a connection to a concoted West-vs-East / colonial argument. You are trying to create an point fo conflict where there is none. If my country would enforce this (It doesn't) I should have the equal opportunity to renounce my german citizenship in favour of the iranian citizenship... This also happens in the West as well. And last but not least, this my opinion, I am not forcing this onto anyone -- and if I am of the opinion that this concept of "citizenship as hostage" is BS, I can make that opinion public. This touches the sovereignty of those states in no way, except when this sovereignty is enforced on people that are not part of the society of that country, and have lived 95% of their lives in another country.
    - jfk13 8y ago
      > Each individual should have the choice to live in the society they want In practice, most societies do not allow arbitrary individuals to choose to come and join them; immigration restrictions are a thing pretty much everywhere.
      - 8y ago

donretag 8y ago

Exactly. I am an American citizen, but was still drafted into another country's army.

saagarjha 8y ago
What happens if you are in a conflict with the United States?
- sharpneli 8y ago
  It might depend on country but I can tell how it works in Finland. If you are in Finnish army then you will fight against your other country. But Finnish army doesnt allow being member of multiple armies. So if you have gone trough, as an example, US service Finnish army wont accept you. And if you go to US army after gaining rank in Finnish army you lose the Finnish rank and are just a civilian.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    Interesting. The reason I'm asking this is because I faintly recall my parents saying that they were asked if they'd fight for the United States when they applied for their citizenship if they ever went to war against their (previous) home country, so I'm curious if there's differences in what they ask you if you are applying for a dual citizenship.
    - clamprecht 8y ago
      What was your parents' answer?
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        Yes, of course ;)

int_19h 8y ago

In many cases it is, so long as you stay away from the other jurisdiction. In this case, though, it's not that he had such an impression. It's that he didn't know he was a Korean citizen. If draft is a social contract, what do you call a contract where one of the parties never consented to it and wasn't even aware that someone signed them up without their consent, and then the other party tries to enforce it?

askmike 8y ago
Citizenship is not about consent. There might be situations where you can out of yours, but I don't think that means that everyone else consents. That said I don't agree with how it works.
- int_19h 8y ago
  Citizenship is at least opt-out in general. Some countries don't let you do it at all, and most make it complicated and expensive, but still. For adults, that's an option if you're unhappy with taxes, laws etc. But if you're born a citizen in a country with conscription, then you're underage - and thus unable to opt-out on your own, even if you could somehow afford it - until you're 18. And then they hand you the summons.
  - jogjayr 8y ago
    > Citizenship is at least opt-out in general. Only if you're able to obtain another citizenship. I don't think any country will allow renunciation if it leaves you stateless.
    - int_19h 8y ago
      Most countries don't, but some do; USA is one of them.
pawelmurias 8y ago
An involuntary social construct like the contract that you have to choose either your money or your life.

jfk13 8y ago

Indeed. It's quite explicit, for example, in the British government's information on "Support for British nationals abroad": "If you have some connection with another country – for example, by birth, by descent through either parent, by marriage or by residence – you may be a national of that country as well as being a British national. ... You may still have certain responsibilities with that country, such as compulsory military service."

maze-le 8y ago

The worst of it is, some states don't let you rescind your citizenship at all. I know at least 2 Iranian born citizens of my country, that cannot travel to their family and former friends anymore because of this -- Turkey seems to enforce steps in this regard too lately. Citizenship status should be "opt-in" not "opt-out" or "no option" at all.

barry-cotter 8y ago
Why? Why should other countries accept a Western conception of citizenship as disclaimable? Those other countries are not colonies of anyone, they’re sovereign, they can do as they like and if other countries disagree they can go to war or use some of the other methods countries use to resolved disagreements.
- maze-le 8y ago
  Each individual should have the choice to live in the society they want, that is equally true the other way around -- I don't see a connection to a concoted West-vs-East / colonial argument. You are trying to create an point fo conflict where there is none. If my country would enforce this (It doesn't) I should have the equal opportunity to renounce my german citizenship in favour of the iranian citizenship... This also happens in the West as well. And last but not least, this my opinion, I am not forcing this onto anyone -- and if I am of the opinion that this concept of "citizenship as hostage" is BS, I can make that opinion public. This touches the sovereignty of those states in no way, except when this sovereignty is enforced on people that are not part of the society of that country, and have lived 95% of their lives in another country.
  - jfk13 8y ago
    > Each individual should have the choice to live in the society they want In practice, most societies do not allow arbitrary individuals to choose to come and join them; immigration restrictions are a thing pretty much everywhere.
    - 8y ago