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My guess is they won’t revoke degrees but folks currently in school are at risk. When you look at graduation percentages from the top schools, you realize not

My guess is they won’t revoke degrees but folks currently in school are at risk. When you look at graduation percentages from the top schools, you realize not many fail out.

ineedasername 8y ago
Those in school are absolutely at risk. I work in the industry. If we found out at any point that someone had lied or faked a credential, they would be out. And applications require a student signature or electronic affirmation to the accuracy of their submission. There's no reasonable expectation that a student didn't or couldn't have known there were errors or falsehoods. In the case of test scores, the student would have been aware that they did not have a legitimate IEP for test accommodations, so there's no deniability for them to say the parents arranged the fraud without their knowledge. I've seen the test agencies invalidate scores for much less. That too then negates the entire application decision. Absent direct hard evidence of student knowledge, some schools may choose to overlook some of the factors and be lenient. Those students should consider themselves very fortunate.
- Top5a 8y ago
  >applications require a student signature or electronic affirmation to the accuracy of their submission Yes. I fail to understand all these people stating that it was not the fault of the students. They lied on their applications. It is akin to being asked at an airport if you packed your bags yourself. These students signed a legally binding affirmation that the information they submitted was accurate (and sometimes a statement that they completed the application without assistance), and, thusly, they are as equally guilty of fraud as their parents.
- argd678 8y ago
  But would they revoke the degree years later too?
  - ineedasername 8y ago
    I'm not sure we could. The case can be made that the student did the coursework to earn the degree, even if their initial admission was fraudulently obtained. I think we'd scrutinize that coursework for any other evidence of fraud/cheating though. Ultimately it would come down to the lawyers and courts to work out.
    - cperciva 8y ago
      In Canada, I think degrees would be revoked if there was clear evidence that students actively participated in the fraud which obtained their admission. But in this case it seems that most students were unaware of what their parents were doing; we would probably revoke admission for any students who hadn't completed their degrees, but not take away anything they had achieved while at the university. (And they would be free to apply for re-admission -- and almost certainly get it, if they had good grades in the courses they had completed so far.) Ultimately it would come down to the lawyers and courts to work out. Would the courts get involved? In Canada, absent clear signs of a defective process, courts are extremely unlikely to overrule universities on academic issues.
      - ineedasername 8y ago
        I mean the courts would get involved if the schools rescinded the degree because students would file a lawsuit. You're right, they wouldn't do it of their own accord. And they might dismiss the case on its merits, hard to say.
        cperciva 8y ago
        Right, I'm saying that in Canada if a university decides to revoke a degree, I can't imagine a court hearing a lawsuit beyond checking that the university in question was procedurally fair.

My guess is they won’t revoke degrees but folks currently in school are at risk. When you look at graduation percentages from the top schools, you realize not many fail out.

ineedasername 8y ago

Those in school are absolutely at risk. I work in the industry. If we found out at any point that someone had lied or faked a credential, they would be out. And applications require a student signature or electronic affirmation to the accuracy of their submission. There's no reasonable expectation that a student didn't or couldn't have known there were errors or falsehoods. In the case of test scores, the student would have been aware that they did not have a legitimate IEP for test accommodations, so there's no deniability for them to say the parents arranged the fraud without their knowledge. I've seen the test agencies invalidate scores for much less. That too then negates the entire application decision. Absent direct hard evidence of student knowledge, some schools may choose to overlook some of the factors and be lenient. Those students should consider themselves very fortunate.

Top5a 8y ago
>applications require a student signature or electronic affirmation to the accuracy of their submission Yes. I fail to understand all these people stating that it was not the fault of the students. They lied on their applications. It is akin to being asked at an airport if you packed your bags yourself. These students signed a legally binding affirmation that the information they submitted was accurate (and sometimes a statement that they completed the application without assistance), and, thusly, they are as equally guilty of fraud as their parents.
argd678 8y ago
But would they revoke the degree years later too?
- ineedasername 8y ago
  I'm not sure we could. The case can be made that the student did the coursework to earn the degree, even if their initial admission was fraudulently obtained. I think we'd scrutinize that coursework for any other evidence of fraud/cheating though. Ultimately it would come down to the lawyers and courts to work out.
  - cperciva 8y ago
    In Canada, I think degrees would be revoked if there was clear evidence that students actively participated in the fraud which obtained their admission. But in this case it seems that most students were unaware of what their parents were doing; we would probably revoke admission for any students who hadn't completed their degrees, but not take away anything they had achieved while at the university. (And they would be free to apply for re-admission -- and almost certainly get it, if they had good grades in the courses they had completed so far.) Ultimately it would come down to the lawyers and courts to work out. Would the courts get involved? In Canada, absent clear signs of a defective process, courts are extremely unlikely to overrule universities on academic issues.
    - ineedasername 8y ago
      I mean the courts would get involved if the schools rescinded the degree because students would file a lawsuit. You're right, they wouldn't do it of their own accord. And they might dismiss the case on its merits, hard to say.
      - cperciva 8y ago
        Right, I'm saying that in Canada if a university decides to revoke a degree, I can't imagine a court hearing a lawsuit beyond checking that the university in question was procedurally fair.