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I wonder what they’ll do with the students that have graduated. Do they revoke their degrees? Also it would be interesting to see how well they performed overa

I wonder what they’ll do with the students that have graduated. Do they revoke their degrees? Also it would be interesting to see how well they performed overall, if they actually performed better than legitimately accepted students what does that say about the acceptance process?

newman8r 8y ago
If they did perform better, I'd have to suspect that it might be a result of even more cheating.
- argd678 8y ago
  Apparently not all were aware of how they were accepted so they may not have cheated after that. Also students who are legitimately smart cheat too, which I’ve seen first hand, mainly because they feel their time is better spent on other projects than grinding away at homework for example.
  - holografix 8y ago
    Let’s not forget a good proportion of high achievers at university are basically taking performance enhancing legal amphetamines in the form of ADHD medication.
    - argd678 8y ago
      I saw this too in high school, ridilin was trivial to come by. If you’re graded on a bell curve and you’re playing the game so to speak then playing by the “rules” doesn’t make sense since the rules are just a guise. That was the insight I saw from some higher achievers.
- maehwasu 8y ago
  I doubt their parents care enough to pay for cheating at that point. The school name is what really matters. (source: used to work in the seedy underbelly of Asian US college admissions consulting)
  - defen 8y ago
    How seedy is it, compared to what we know about Singer? I'm guessing no outright bribery, but what about essay "help"? Cheating on tests?
  - Top5a 8y ago
    Why would you chose this line of work (serious question, not a value judgment)? Did you know how amoral it was when you first applied? What caused you to leave?
  - newman8r 8y ago
    Some students pay to have papers written for them, and others have access to test banks. It's probably not parents paying off university staff at that point though.
mathattack 8y ago
My guess is they won’t revoke degrees but folks currently in school are at risk. When you look at graduation percentages from the top schools, you realize not many fail out.
- ineedasername 8y ago
  Those in school are absolutely at risk. I work in the industry. If we found out at any point that someone had lied or faked a credential, they would be out. And applications require a student signature or electronic affirmation to the accuracy of their submission. There's no reasonable expectation that a student didn't or couldn't have known there were errors or falsehoods. In the case of test scores, the student would have been aware that they did not have a legitimate IEP for test accommodations, so there's no deniability for them to say the parents arranged the fraud without their knowledge. I've seen the test agencies invalidate scores for much less. That too then negates the entire application decision. Absent direct hard evidence of student knowledge, some schools may choose to overlook some of the factors and be lenient. Those students should consider themselves very fortunate.
  - Top5a 8y ago
    >applications require a student signature or electronic affirmation to the accuracy of their submission Yes. I fail to understand all these people stating that it was not the fault of the students. They lied on their applications. It is akin to being asked at an airport if you packed your bags yourself. These students signed a legally binding affirmation that the information they submitted was accurate (and sometimes a statement that they completed the application without assistance), and, thusly, they are as equally guilty of fraud as their parents.
  - argd678 8y ago
    But would they revoke the degree years later too?
    - ineedasername 8y ago
      I'm not sure we could. The case can be made that the student did the coursework to earn the degree, even if their initial admission was fraudulently obtained. I think we'd scrutinize that coursework for any other evidence of fraud/cheating though. Ultimately it would come down to the lawyers and courts to work out.
rixrax 8y ago
No empathy. Kick those still in out, and revoke the degrees for those already graduated. In fact if these falsely admitted kids had any sense of decency, they would be now lining up to turn in their ‘credentials’ and degrees. Yes, some may have not known about it. And that’s an interesting conversation they will have with their parents about royally screwing them over. But you don’t get a pass for breaking a law just because you were unaware of it either. On a more serious note, we are severely punishing people of color for trying to advance their kids educational opportunities[0]. If we don’t offer same courtesy to these perpetrators, what kind of country are we living in and what kind of message will that send out? [0] https://educationpost.org/while-rich-people-bribe-their-kids-way-into-college-parents-of-color-sit-in-jail-for-wanting-better-schools/ https://educationpost.org/while-rich-people-bribe-their-kids...
- jacobolus 8y ago
  The kids themselves were in most cases unaware of their parents’ deception. We shouldn’t be lining up to punish 19 year olds for their parents’ crimes. Large fines and jail time for the parents is punishment enough here.
  - sbuttgereit 8y ago
    It's true that the kids who did not know about the wrong that granted them admission should not be viewed as morally culpable and should not be "punished". But to suggest that they should still be allowed to benefit from fraud isn't the right answer either. Ill-got admission or degrees should be revoked. Insofar as those rewards of fraud should be revoked, and the kids unaware, the students are themselves victims of their parents along with those others that were defrauded; that they would be harmed by the fraud of their parents shouldn't be surprising to them or anyone else. (They are, after all, adults). Those still in school should be expelled on some sort of "no fault" basis. They could then be allowed to reapply and demonstrate that they really belong there on their own merits. For those already with degrees, it's less clear and I don't have a good answer; I don't see any way out that either prevents the fraud from succeeding in it's goal (untenable) or is overtly punitive towards the student (also untenable)... the only real answer there is revoke the degree and tell the student/victim to seek redress from the ones that committed fraud (their parents).

newman8r 8y ago

If they did perform better, I'd have to suspect that it might be a result of even more cheating.

argd678 8y ago
Apparently not all were aware of how they were accepted so they may not have cheated after that. Also students who are legitimately smart cheat too, which I’ve seen first hand, mainly because they feel their time is better spent on other projects than grinding away at homework for example.
- holografix 8y ago
  Let’s not forget a good proportion of high achievers at university are basically taking performance enhancing legal amphetamines in the form of ADHD medication.
  - argd678 8y ago
    I saw this too in high school, ridilin was trivial to come by. If you’re graded on a bell curve and you’re playing the game so to speak then playing by the “rules” doesn’t make sense since the rules are just a guise. That was the insight I saw from some higher achievers.
maehwasu 8y ago
I doubt their parents care enough to pay for cheating at that point. The school name is what really matters. (source: used to work in the seedy underbelly of Asian US college admissions consulting)
- defen 8y ago
  How seedy is it, compared to what we know about Singer? I'm guessing no outright bribery, but what about essay "help"? Cheating on tests?
- Top5a 8y ago
  Why would you chose this line of work (serious question, not a value judgment)? Did you know how amoral it was when you first applied? What caused you to leave?
- newman8r 8y ago
  Some students pay to have papers written for them, and others have access to test banks. It's probably not parents paying off university staff at that point though.

mathattack 8y ago

My guess is they won’t revoke degrees but folks currently in school are at risk. When you look at graduation percentages from the top schools, you realize not many fail out.

ineedasername 8y ago
Those in school are absolutely at risk. I work in the industry. If we found out at any point that someone had lied or faked a credential, they would be out. And applications require a student signature or electronic affirmation to the accuracy of their submission. There's no reasonable expectation that a student didn't or couldn't have known there were errors or falsehoods. In the case of test scores, the student would have been aware that they did not have a legitimate IEP for test accommodations, so there's no deniability for them to say the parents arranged the fraud without their knowledge. I've seen the test agencies invalidate scores for much less. That too then negates the entire application decision. Absent direct hard evidence of student knowledge, some schools may choose to overlook some of the factors and be lenient. Those students should consider themselves very fortunate.
- Top5a 8y ago
  >applications require a student signature or electronic affirmation to the accuracy of their submission Yes. I fail to understand all these people stating that it was not the fault of the students. They lied on their applications. It is akin to being asked at an airport if you packed your bags yourself. These students signed a legally binding affirmation that the information they submitted was accurate (and sometimes a statement that they completed the application without assistance), and, thusly, they are as equally guilty of fraud as their parents.
- argd678 8y ago
  But would they revoke the degree years later too?
  - ineedasername 8y ago
    I'm not sure we could. The case can be made that the student did the coursework to earn the degree, even if their initial admission was fraudulently obtained. I think we'd scrutinize that coursework for any other evidence of fraud/cheating though. Ultimately it would come down to the lawyers and courts to work out.

rixrax 8y ago

No empathy. Kick those still in out, and revoke the degrees for those already graduated. In fact if these falsely admitted kids had any sense of decency, they would be now lining up to turn in their ‘credentials’ and degrees. Yes, some may have not known about it. And that’s an interesting conversation they will have with their parents about royally screwing them over. But you don’t get a pass for breaking a law just because you were unaware of it either. On a more serious note, we are severely punishing people of color for trying to advance their kids educational opportunities[0]. If we don’t offer same courtesy to these perpetrators, what kind of country are we living in and what kind of message will that send out? [0] https://educationpost.org/while-rich-people-bribe-their-kids-way-into-college-parents-of-color-sit-in-jail-for-wanting-better-schools/ https://educationpost.org/while-rich-people-bribe-their-kids...

jacobolus 8y ago
The kids themselves were in most cases unaware of their parents’ deception. We shouldn’t be lining up to punish 19 year olds for their parents’ crimes. Large fines and jail time for the parents is punishment enough here.
- sbuttgereit 8y ago
  It's true that the kids who did not know about the wrong that granted them admission should not be viewed as morally culpable and should not be "punished". But to suggest that they should still be allowed to benefit from fraud isn't the right answer either. Ill-got admission or degrees should be revoked. Insofar as those rewards of fraud should be revoked, and the kids unaware, the students are themselves victims of their parents along with those others that were defrauded; that they would be harmed by the fraud of their parents shouldn't be surprising to them or anyone else. (They are, after all, adults). Those still in school should be expelled on some sort of "no fault" basis. They could then be allowed to reapply and demonstrate that they really belong there on their own merits. For those already with degrees, it's less clear and I don't have a good answer; I don't see any way out that either prevents the fraud from succeeding in it's goal (untenable) or is overtly punitive towards the student (also untenable)... the only real answer there is revoke the degree and tell the student/victim to seek redress from the ones that committed fraud (their parents).