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College bribery scandal: students sue elite schools in class action

39 points by vixen99 8y ago

dannykwells 8y ago
While I don't believe much will come of this I fully support it. I think these schools need to have a sense of repercussions instilled in them. It's not enough to fire a coach, we need to hit them where it hurts. The wealthy private universities are among the most powerful and least regulated institutions in the country and its high time we treated them as such.
- criddell 8y ago
  For private universities, I think you are going to run up against first amendment problems.
  - ChrisBland 8y ago
    As long as they take federal grants/loans the dept of education will have a sit down with them. The interesting point will be if the NCAA steps in or not as this was an abuse of the student athlete admission procedures. To me this screams a lack of institutional control; if coaches are being bribed and faking credentials and the school never picks up on it it looks bad. That could be a punishment of loss of scholarships or up to the famous death penalty. I’d imagine the ncaa will try to sidestep this issue as much as possible as USC and Texas are football schools and it would cripple the university. For those interested in learning more about college athletics, the ncaa clearing house and what not, I’d highly recommend the book: “Beer & Circus”. There’s a lot you don’t know about the ncaa and sports at large universities.
argd678 8y ago
I wonder what they’ll do with the students that have graduated. Do they revoke their degrees? Also it would be interesting to see how well they performed overall, if they actually performed better than legitimately accepted students what does that say about the acceptance process?
- newman8r 8y ago
  If they did perform better, I'd have to suspect that it might be a result of even more cheating.
  - argd678 8y ago
    Apparently not all were aware of how they were accepted so they may not have cheated after that. Also students who are legitimately smart cheat too, which I’ve seen first hand, mainly because they feel their time is better spent on other projects than grinding away at homework for example.
    - holografix 8y ago
      Let’s not forget a good proportion of high achievers at university are basically taking performance enhancing legal amphetamines in the form of ADHD medication.
      - argd678 8y ago
        I saw this too in high school, ridilin was trivial to come by. If you’re graded on a bell curve and you’re playing the game so to speak then playing by the “rules” doesn’t make sense since the rules are just a guise. That was the insight I saw from some higher achievers.
  - maehwasu 8y ago
    I doubt their parents care enough to pay for cheating at that point. The school name is what really matters. (source: used to work in the seedy underbelly of Asian US college admissions consulting)
    - defen 8y ago
      How seedy is it, compared to what we know about Singer? I'm guessing no outright bribery, but what about essay "help"? Cheating on tests?
    - 8y ago
cwilkes 8y ago
Good luck with that: https://abovethelaw.com/2019/03/current-stanford-students-file-class-action-because-scammers-devalued-their-degree/ https://abovethelaw.com/2019/03/current-stanford-students-fi... > You can’t really argue that your degree is not worth what you “thought” it would be, because the “worth” of a degree isn’t of an objective value anyway.
- dominotw 8y ago
  > “worth” of a degree isn’t of an objective value anyway. Isn't it >= to the bribe amount?
- protomyth 8y ago
  This is a bit different as these folks are suing for being excluded as opposed to a devaluation. People do often sue for exclusion to things.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  That's not what they are suing for, in any case. Also, while subjective value is... subjective...market worth is not and is a thing that, outside of college, misrepresentations relevant to are frequent subject of successful suits.
- rixrax 8y ago
  I certainly think that since they let unqualified kids in, somehow the curriculum had to adjust to, or already be of a lesser standard. To push it even further, why would I want to go to and pay for education in X when in fact now we know that quality of education, or passing criteria at least isn’t maybe much different from your average community college. Or maybe the entry criteria never was about being able to find and accept the smartest and the brightest of each generation...
- strikelaserclaw 8y ago
  Dude that article is funny as hell. "John is a native of St. Louis. He attended St. Louis Priory High School. For college, he attended Brown University, an Ivy League School and one of the top colleges in the country. He then attended Washington University Law School, where he graduated in the top of his class." - "Buddy, anybody you have to tell that Brown is an IVY LEAGUE school and one of the “top colleges in the country” … is a person that does not care."
Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago
Sorry if this sound naive, but I'm not American and I don't get why this is a scandal at all. Isn't it common knowledge that elite universities in the US admit the children whose parents make a strong donation to the university? At least that's what most people think in my country. Perhaps it's a myth though, given that this has made the news?
- Meekro 8y ago
  People donate money to universities all the time in exchange for admission. But in this case, the bribes went to university employees -- who could be bought much cheaper than the university itself. The university was the victim of a fraud by its own employees.
  - hashset 8y ago
    Meekro your pattern of saying the university is a victim here is laughable, almost like you're being paid to propagate it. You said yourself the University has been involved in this type of behavior for decades (centuries?) - employees like Athletic Directors, who also represent the University like admissions deans do it behind their back and its all of a sudden fraud against the University? Bullhonkey my good man
    - dhruvrrp 8y ago
      Getting into, lets say Stanford, on the basis of donations alone would be a few million dollars. Now if an Athletic Director takes a bribe of $50,000 (according to the articles) to get people in on sports scholarships and what not, then yes the University is a victim since it lost a few million dollars on the transaction.
      - hashset 8y ago
        Isn't a donation (bribe) such as this itself fraud on a much more significant level? Especially for tax-funded or subsidized institutions?
brightball 8y ago
I honestly don’t understand why this is a bigger deal than what happened at UNC. There was a 30 year scandal of fake classes at the university and somehow degrees are intact, accreditation remains unchallenged. But a few rich kids getting into schools where they don’t deserve to be is a national scandal?
- gatherhunterer 8y ago
  If there is wide field of political candidates and one of them is a former reality TV star, who is going to get the most national media attention? Americans are more interested in celebrity drama than anything else. Quality education is a rock bottom priority.
- cribbles 8y ago
  The UNC scandal’s beneficiaries were athletes from predominately lower-to-middle class backgrounds. They weren’t competing for the same post-grad jobs and internships as the general applicant pool. They were on an athletic track whose post-grad opportunities were essentially totally different from most of the campus body. This is annoying if you think universities shouldn’t have high-budget, self-standing athletic programs coupled to their putatively academic mission, or that even if they do, they should play by the rules. But this doesn’t raise the same ire as the observation that wealthy people can simply buy their way into the academic track. At least the athletes had to have athletic merit.
  - brightball 8y ago
    Oh no, the way they avoided NCAA sanctions was specifically because the fake classes were available to the general student body and NOT taken predominantly by athletes.
- Meekro 8y ago
  I think the only reason the government is treating it so seriously is, this time, the university is the victim.
  - 8y ago
dang 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19390757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19390757

39 points by vixen99 8y ago

While I don't believe much will come of this I fully support it. I think these schools need to have a sense of repercussions instilled in them. It's not enough to fire a coach, we need to hit them where it hurts. The wealthy private universities are among the most powerful and least regulated institutions in the country and its high time we treated them as such.

criddell 8y ago
For private universities, I think you are going to run up against first amendment problems.
- ChrisBland 8y ago
  As long as they take federal grants/loans the dept of education will have a sit down with them. The interesting point will be if the NCAA steps in or not as this was an abuse of the student athlete admission procedures. To me this screams a lack of institutional control; if coaches are being bribed and faking credentials and the school never picks up on it it looks bad. That could be a punishment of loss of scholarships or up to the famous death penalty. I’d imagine the ncaa will try to sidestep this issue as much as possible as USC and Texas are football schools and it would cripple the university. For those interested in learning more about college athletics, the ncaa clearing house and what not, I’d highly recommend the book: “Beer & Circus”. There’s a lot you don’t know about the ncaa and sports at large universities.

argd678 8y ago

I wonder what they’ll do with the students that have graduated. Do they revoke their degrees? Also it would be interesting to see how well they performed overall, if they actually performed better than legitimately accepted students what does that say about the acceptance process?

newman8r 8y ago
If they did perform better, I'd have to suspect that it might be a result of even more cheating.
- argd678 8y ago
  Apparently not all were aware of how they were accepted so they may not have cheated after that. Also students who are legitimately smart cheat too, which I’ve seen first hand, mainly because they feel their time is better spent on other projects than grinding away at homework for example.
  - holografix 8y ago
    Let’s not forget a good proportion of high achievers at university are basically taking performance enhancing legal amphetamines in the form of ADHD medication.
    - argd678 8y ago
      I saw this too in high school, ridilin was trivial to come by. If you’re graded on a bell curve and you’re playing the game so to speak then playing by the “rules” doesn’t make sense since the rules are just a guise. That was the insight I saw from some higher achievers.
- maehwasu 8y ago
  I doubt their parents care enough to pay for cheating at that point. The school name is what really matters. (source: used to work in the seedy underbelly of Asian US college admissions consulting)
  - defen 8y ago
    How seedy is it, compared to what we know about Singer? I'm guessing no outright bribery, but what about essay "help"? Cheating on tests?
  - 8y ago

cwilkes 8y ago

Good luck with that: https://abovethelaw.com/2019/03/current-stanford-students-file-class-action-because-scammers-devalued-their-degree/ https://abovethelaw.com/2019/03/current-stanford-students-fi... > You can’t really argue that your degree is not worth what you “thought” it would be, because the “worth” of a degree isn’t of an objective value anyway.

dominotw 8y ago
> “worth” of a degree isn’t of an objective value anyway. Isn't it >= to the bribe amount?
protomyth 8y ago
This is a bit different as these folks are suing for being excluded as opposed to a devaluation. People do often sue for exclusion to things.
dragonwriter 8y ago
That's not what they are suing for, in any case. Also, while subjective value is... subjective...market worth is not and is a thing that, outside of college, misrepresentations relevant to are frequent subject of successful suits.
rixrax 8y ago
I certainly think that since they let unqualified kids in, somehow the curriculum had to adjust to, or already be of a lesser standard. To push it even further, why would I want to go to and pay for education in X when in fact now we know that quality of education, or passing criteria at least isn’t maybe much different from your average community college. Or maybe the entry criteria never was about being able to find and accept the smartest and the brightest of each generation...
strikelaserclaw 8y ago
Dude that article is funny as hell. "John is a native of St. Louis. He attended St. Louis Priory High School. For college, he attended Brown University, an Ivy League School and one of the top colleges in the country. He then attended Washington University Law School, where he graduated in the top of his class." - "Buddy, anybody you have to tell that Brown is an IVY LEAGUE school and one of the “top colleges in the country” … is a person that does not care."

Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago

Sorry if this sound naive, but I'm not American and I don't get why this is a scandal at all. Isn't it common knowledge that elite universities in the US admit the children whose parents make a strong donation to the university? At least that's what most people think in my country. Perhaps it's a myth though, given that this has made the news?

Meekro 8y ago
People donate money to universities all the time in exchange for admission. But in this case, the bribes went to university employees -- who could be bought much cheaper than the university itself. The university was the victim of a fraud by its own employees.
- hashset 8y ago
  Meekro your pattern of saying the university is a victim here is laughable, almost like you're being paid to propagate it. You said yourself the University has been involved in this type of behavior for decades (centuries?) - employees like Athletic Directors, who also represent the University like admissions deans do it behind their back and its all of a sudden fraud against the University? Bullhonkey my good man
  - dhruvrrp 8y ago
    Getting into, lets say Stanford, on the basis of donations alone would be a few million dollars. Now if an Athletic Director takes a bribe of $50,000 (according to the articles) to get people in on sports scholarships and what not, then yes the University is a victim since it lost a few million dollars on the transaction.
    - hashset 8y ago
      Isn't a donation (bribe) such as this itself fraud on a much more significant level? Especially for tax-funded or subsidized institutions?

brightball 8y ago

I honestly don’t understand why this is a bigger deal than what happened at UNC. There was a 30 year scandal of fake classes at the university and somehow degrees are intact, accreditation remains unchallenged. But a few rich kids getting into schools where they don’t deserve to be is a national scandal?

gatherhunterer 8y ago
If there is wide field of political candidates and one of them is a former reality TV star, who is going to get the most national media attention? Americans are more interested in celebrity drama than anything else. Quality education is a rock bottom priority.
cribbles 8y ago
The UNC scandal’s beneficiaries were athletes from predominately lower-to-middle class backgrounds. They weren’t competing for the same post-grad jobs and internships as the general applicant pool. They were on an athletic track whose post-grad opportunities were essentially totally different from most of the campus body. This is annoying if you think universities shouldn’t have high-budget, self-standing athletic programs coupled to their putatively academic mission, or that even if they do, they should play by the rules. But this doesn’t raise the same ire as the observation that wealthy people can simply buy their way into the academic track. At least the athletes had to have athletic merit.
- brightball 8y ago
  Oh no, the way they avoided NCAA sanctions was specifically because the fake classes were available to the general student body and NOT taken predominantly by athletes.
Meekro 8y ago
I think the only reason the government is treating it so seriously is, this time, the university is the victim.
- 8y ago

dang 8y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19390757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19390757