4 ms·

I've recently visited London for the first time. What really stunned me was the huge number of homeless people. They were practically everywhere. And they all

by sbacic 8y ago

I've recently visited London for the first time. What really stunned me was the huge number of homeless people. They were practically everywhere. And they all relied on cash donations. I wonder what will happen to these people as society becomes more and more cashless? What effect will it have on crime?

Symbiote 8y ago
I lived in London since I was a teenager, but moved out in 2015. When I next visited it in 2017, I thought there were a lot of homeless people. It was a huge increase, and the composition was changed -- more British accents asking for change, more people in "nice" areas (like near the theatres) and far more rough sleepers. There were even tents on streets in central London, which I'd not seen previously. A friend a decade older than me said it was the usual effect of Conservative government policy, but I was too young to have noticed the previous implementation. I was 11 when the Conservatives lost power in 1997, and they only fully regained it in 2015.
throwaway8864e 8y ago
In a China, beggars will have a QR code that you can use to give them some money.
- mcguire 8y ago
  How do we get a piece of that action? :-)
m-i-l 8y ago
It does seem to have got a lot more evident in recent years. Not really solving the underlying issues leading to there being so many in the first place, but some homeless do accept contactless donations[0] and there is a city-wide contactless donation scheme[1]. [0] https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/homeless-people-wearing-barcodes-to-accept-online-payments-a3908101.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/homeless-people-wearing-b... [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46372244 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46372244 and https://www.taplondon.org https://www.taplondon.org
jdietrich 8y ago
Begging is a controversial issue in the UK. Our welfare system is far from perfect (and it has been substantially denuded by the current Conservative government) but there are relatively few people who need to beg to survive - primarily non-UK nationals with no recourse to public funds. The consensus view among charities who work with the homeless is that a) most beggars aren't rough sleepers, b) most rough sleepers don't beg and c) begging primarily serves to fund drug addictions. Though by no means universal, many people in the sector are of the opinion that giving to beggars has a net negative effect by helping to perpetuate addiction. Begging certainly isn't a sustainable solution to the factors that cause homelessness - mental illness, addiction, economic insecurity and a lack of social housing. It is entirely plausible that the diminution of begging by a move to cashlessness could see an increase in acquisitive crime.
- xg15 8y ago
  That may be true - but on the other hand, losing access to money doesn't seem to be helping them either. Like, even if the opinions are true, the fraction of people that beg to buy actual food or try to improve their situation wouldn't be able to do that anymore either. I can't imagine that this move would be particularly helpful for people with addiction either. Their addiction won't go away, but they'd probably find other ways to fund it, which might involve entering into really unfortunate power dynamics.
kalleboo 8y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/mar/09/sweden-how-cash-became-more-trouble-than-its-worth https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/mar/09/sweden-how-cas... > SituationSthlm is a Swedish magazine similar to the UK’s Big Issue, sold by homeless people in Stockholm. But the sellers couldn’t sell magazines to people who didn’t carry cash. The solution? A badge for sellers with a QR payment code. Buyers scan it with their phone, make a digital payment using the mobile payment system Swish, and then the seller collects their cash from the SituationStklm offices soon after. > “This solution originated to help sell magazines, but soon showed other benefits. It helped homeless people carry less cash – which reduced their vulnerability to theft, and also gave them a way to budget by leaving their money at the office until they needed it,” said the report. > The researchers also found that Sweden had benefited from lower crime and higher tax revenues as cash usage had fallen, but it added: “We must not demonise those who operate in cash, when many have no choice.”
Meekro 8y ago
Speaking just to crime, there are still about 10 bank robberies per day in the US[1], plus many crimes against individuals where the goal is to obtain cash. I would think that a cashless society would have much less of this? [1] https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/bank-crime-statistics-2017.pdf/view https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/bank-crime-statistics-20...
- MisterTea 8y ago
  Cash is just a bartering medium. You can barter using stolen valuables. Cashless won't stop poverty and desperation. People will adapt and we'll see a shift in crimes.
  - theamk 8y ago
    But much fewer places have valuables compared to cash. Most of the food and service places have nothing worth stealing -- but often carry lots of cash. (or at least used to, some of them since moved to credit-card only [1]) There are other crime-reducing forces as well -- smart car keys which are harder to steal, activation lock on the phones which prevent reselling, and so on. I do wonder how crime would adopt to future cashless society. I think most of the mugging and pickpocketing will go away. Will this mean increase of burglary? Or will the criminals start doing something else? [1] https://www.cloverfoodlab.com/2015/04/23/credit-trucks/ https://www.cloverfoodlab.com/2015/04/23/credit-trucks/

by sbacic 8y ago

Symbiote 8y ago

I lived in London since I was a teenager, but moved out in 2015. When I next visited it in 2017, I thought there were a lot of homeless people. It was a huge increase, and the composition was changed -- more British accents asking for change, more people in "nice" areas (like near the theatres) and far more rough sleepers. There were even tents on streets in central London, which I'd not seen previously. A friend a decade older than me said it was the usual effect of Conservative government policy, but I was too young to have noticed the previous implementation. I was 11 when the Conservatives lost power in 1997, and they only fully regained it in 2015.

throwaway8864e 8y ago

In a China, beggars will have a QR code that you can use to give them some money.

mcguire 8y ago
How do we get a piece of that action? :-)

m-i-l 8y ago

It does seem to have got a lot more evident in recent years. Not really solving the underlying issues leading to there being so many in the first place, but some homeless do accept contactless donations[0] and there is a city-wide contactless donation scheme[1]. [0] https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/homeless-people-wearing-barcodes-to-accept-online-payments-a3908101.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/homeless-people-wearing-b... [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46372244 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46372244 and https://www.taplondon.org https://www.taplondon.org

jdietrich 8y ago

Begging is a controversial issue in the UK. Our welfare system is far from perfect (and it has been substantially denuded by the current Conservative government) but there are relatively few people who need to beg to survive - primarily non-UK nationals with no recourse to public funds. The consensus view among charities who work with the homeless is that a) most beggars aren't rough sleepers, b) most rough sleepers don't beg and c) begging primarily serves to fund drug addictions. Though by no means universal, many people in the sector are of the opinion that giving to beggars has a net negative effect by helping to perpetuate addiction. Begging certainly isn't a sustainable solution to the factors that cause homelessness - mental illness, addiction, economic insecurity and a lack of social housing. It is entirely plausible that the diminution of begging by a move to cashlessness could see an increase in acquisitive crime.

xg15 8y ago
That may be true - but on the other hand, losing access to money doesn't seem to be helping them either. Like, even if the opinions are true, the fraction of people that beg to buy actual food or try to improve their situation wouldn't be able to do that anymore either. I can't imagine that this move would be particularly helpful for people with addiction either. Their addiction won't go away, but they'd probably find other ways to fund it, which might involve entering into really unfortunate power dynamics.

kalleboo 8y ago

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/mar/09/sweden-how-cash-became-more-trouble-than-its-worth https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/mar/09/sweden-how-cas... > SituationSthlm is a Swedish magazine similar to the UK’s Big Issue, sold by homeless people in Stockholm. But the sellers couldn’t sell magazines to people who didn’t carry cash. The solution? A badge for sellers with a QR payment code. Buyers scan it with their phone, make a digital payment using the mobile payment system Swish, and then the seller collects their cash from the SituationStklm offices soon after. > “This solution originated to help sell magazines, but soon showed other benefits. It helped homeless people carry less cash – which reduced their vulnerability to theft, and also gave them a way to budget by leaving their money at the office until they needed it,” said the report. > The researchers also found that Sweden had benefited from lower crime and higher tax revenues as cash usage had fallen, but it added: “We must not demonise those who operate in cash, when many have no choice.”

Meekro 8y ago

Speaking just to crime, there are still about 10 bank robberies per day in the US[1], plus many crimes against individuals where the goal is to obtain cash. I would think that a cashless society would have much less of this? [1] https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/bank-crime-statistics-2017.pdf/view https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/bank-crime-statistics-20...

MisterTea 8y ago
Cash is just a bartering medium. You can barter using stolen valuables. Cashless won't stop poverty and desperation. People will adapt and we'll see a shift in crimes.
- theamk 8y ago
  But much fewer places have valuables compared to cash. Most of the food and service places have nothing worth stealing -- but often carry lots of cash. (or at least used to, some of them since moved to credit-card only [1]) There are other crime-reducing forces as well -- smart car keys which are harder to steal, activation lock on the phones which prevent reselling, and so on. I do wonder how crime would adopt to future cashless society. I think most of the mugging and pickpocketing will go away. Will this mean increase of burglary? Or will the criminals start doing something else? [1] https://www.cloverfoodlab.com/2015/04/23/credit-trucks/ https://www.cloverfoodlab.com/2015/04/23/credit-trucks/