6 ms·

Android Q will kill clipboard manager apps in the name of privacy

24 points by ccnafr 8y ago

Someone1234 8y ago
Does anyone else notice this cycle? Write articles about a privacy problem, putting pressure on Google to resolve it, then once they do as was asked, then complain about the edge cases broken by that very privacy improvement. It feels like playing both sides of an issue to generate twice the traffic.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  It seems like Google deliberately misses the point in all privacy related changes. It's not in their interest to do it properly after all. It seems like the standard pattern for Android. Privacy, well the sorry state of, is why I switched to Apple 2 years ago. There's some pressure to resolve privacy issues so Google changes (breaks) something minor. Something that in no way impacts the top 10 of privacy and tracking issues, so they can carry on selling ads and using data unaffected.
  - ignoramous 8y ago
    > It seems like Google deliberately misses the point in all privacy related changes Harsh considering the fact that Google has been dedicating resources to privacy and took important steps to that affect with Android O [0] and Android P [1] and now with Android Q. They hosted a invite-only-industry-experts conference to understand the implications of wide-spread security and privacy issues with Android [2][3]. [0] https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/12/double-stuffed-security-in-android-oreo.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/12/double-stu... [1] https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2018/12/android-pie-la-mode-security-privacy.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2018/12/android-pi... [2] https://www.blog.google/technology/safety-security/project-strobe https://www.blog.google/technology/safety-security/project-s... [3] https://security.googleblog.com/2018/12/aspire-to-keep-protecting-billions-of.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/12/aspire-to-keep-prote...
    - deogeo 8y ago
      Privacy against everyone except Google: https://www.cnet.com/news/new-study-finds-google-android-is-sharing-even-more-data-than-we-thought/ https://www.cnet.com/news/new-study-finds-google-android-is-... You would think with all those privacy resources, Google would be able to stop itself from spying. Perhaps a few more conferences will help?
      - skybrian 8y ago
        Considering that the accuracy of the study it describes is disputed, that doesn't seem like a good link to back up your point?
        deogeo 8y ago
        1.) Disputed by Google as 'misleading'. 2.) Try this link then: https://apnews.com/828aefab64d4411bac257a07c1af0ecb https://apnews.com/828aefab64d4411bac257a07c1af0ecb (note that these studies don't cover the UI dark patterns encouraging you to give up your privacy 'willingly') 3.) Are we really going to pretend Google's spying is such a fringe idea that it needs a citation to be believed, and not their main business model?
        skybrian 8y ago
        The problem with this sort of argument is that I struggle to understand how people are actually harmed. It seems like people assume that Google is harming people, somehow, but it's not spelled out. (It seems like collecting information, alone, shouldn't count as harm? It needs to be used for some bad purpose or disclosed to harm anyone.)
        deogeo 8y ago
        So now the goal has moved from proving Google is spying, to showing how that spying is harmful? But okay, lets go with it. First of all, the information is disclosed immediately - to Google. Then it's just a matter of how much more disclosed is gets. Surveillance has been shown to chill expression (https://www.cjfe.org/how_mass_surveillance_harms_societies_and_individuals_and_what_you_can_do_about_it https://www.cjfe.org/how_mass_surveillance_harms_societies_a..., https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/05/when-surveillance-chills-speech-new-studies-show-our-rights-free-association https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/05/when-surveillance-chil...), and even just metadata can be used to easily find whistleblowers (https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/how-team-of-pre-teens-found-whisteblower-using-metadata/8113668 https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/how-team-of-pre...). Will Google now or in the future offer services to help "secure corporate IP" by finding whistleblowers? Is it wise to assume they won't? Keep in mind all the information they gather now will be kept for when they want to misuse it later. What if they get served with a warrant for that information? Such as by a government agency that's helping to quash unions (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43507728 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43507728)? How certain are you that there's no company that, now or in the future, will offer services to employers to help identify employees with corporate-unfriendly political beliefs? Then there is the simple fact that information is power, and used to amass even more power, such as when Facebook used data gathered by Onavo to decide which apps to acquire (https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/12/05/facebooks-onavo-spying-app-shaped-monumental-decis.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/12/05/facebooks-onavo-sp...). So spying directly helps corporate giants maintain their monopolies. And all of that harm is without an authoritarian government in place. What about countries that aren't so lucky as to have a mostly freedom-respecting government? How sure are you your own country won't join them in the next ~50 years? Surveillance is a leash and collar around your neck - just because it's long enough now, doesn't mean you should wait to get it off.
- addicted 8y ago
  Not really. It seems to me Google releases features without privacy protections, which leads to som legitimate use, but also a lot of privacy abuse. People point out the privacy abuse, and they clamp down on those features. Obviously when they do so they are unable to cover all legitimate use cases immediately, so it’s useful to point out the edge cases they missed so they can work on supporting those edge cases going forward.
Ultramanoid 8y ago
This is throwing the baby with the bathtub, completely ridiculous. They could remove internet permission from all applications except Google's own Chrome, with that reasoning. Instead of removing clipboard permissions from all applications, make it a clear option so that the user can give it when needed or only to a specific application, for instance the essential clipboard manager -- that Android incomprehensibly doesn't have and never has, as part of its core. So far only third-party applications have provided this needed feature. Bundling clipboard with Google's keyboard ( or others like Swiftkey ) that come loaded with unnecessary permissions ( like internet -- I personally never use a keyboard with that permission ! ) and analytics packages is certainly not improving privacy at all.
- jeswin 8y ago
  I'd bet that less than 0.1% of users use a custom clipboard. Android's primary focus should be to make the OS secure for the nontechnical majority. These are people who don't understand permissions, and will click on app installer popups. IMHO this is a welcome move. An alternative would have been to deny all network access to clipboard apps - thereby ensuring that they are not able to steal any data.
  - Ultramanoid 8y ago
    According to numbers of downloads of clipboard managers, it's probably much higher than that. But the reasoning doesn't stand. Like I said, they could remove all phony Chrome clones with massive analytics and calls home, of which there are dozens, with read and write storage permissions, internet permission, etc, the list goes on and on. And say only Chrome is allowed, or vetted browsers from known vendors, like Mozilla or Microsoft, they certainly should, but they don't do it. Yet they pick on an essential feature for anyone using copy and paste hundreds of times a day. There is much more danger in rogue browsers, by far, than in a clipboard manager. The solution is absolutely obvious. It isn't what they decided. It is just the first beta, but we'll see. It'd be ridiculous to need to have a text file always open in another application with constantly used bits of text, code, or info, and switch back and forth as needed multiplying a simple workflow by who knows how much in operations and time.
dplgk 8y ago
So don't fix actual privacy issues users complain about (i.e. Their whole business model), fix the supposed ones for tools that users enjoy and opt into so that you can feign caring about privacy.
jeroenhd 8y ago
I've never even thought about clipboard managers for Android. While I can see the lack of such tools might limit some users' productivity, I think the overal result of a change is still a positive one. I'd much rather see background clipboard access as a separate permission classified as "dangerous", but I doubt most people won't just click allow till the prompts stop happening. Maybe things would improve if aside from a permission, a notification would appear each time an app is accessing/has recently accessed the clipboard, with the option to mute notification sounds about specific apps. That way, background clipboard access is discouraged yet still available.
- Ultramanoid 8y ago
  There are many ways to do this. Off the top of my head right now, make it a developer option, off by default, and only accessible through the developer options menu, which also needs to be activated itself.
- scarface74 8y ago
  It’s even simpler. By default, for instance, third party keyboards don’t have network access and you have to explicitly go through settings to give it access and then you get a big scary warning.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
jaflo 8y ago
I think there should be an option to allow background access to the clipboard. I use a translation app that listens for a copy and pops up a translation on top of what I'm currently doing. I would prefer not to have to switch apps every time to do this.
anoncake 8y ago
Google must be trying to make people root their phones.
- praneshp 8y ago
  You'd think so. In reality, only a vocal and miniscule minority cares about such things. The sweet discounts and price cuts sells their phones really well to the majority
sschueller 8y ago
This will break all those apps that let you download/repost Instagram posts. I guess I will be abandoning the one I wrote.

24 points by ccnafr 8y ago

Does anyone else notice this cycle? Write articles about a privacy problem, putting pressure on Google to resolve it, then once they do as was asked, then complain about the edge cases broken by that very privacy improvement. It feels like playing both sides of an issue to generate twice the traffic.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
It seems like Google deliberately misses the point in all privacy related changes. It's not in their interest to do it properly after all. It seems like the standard pattern for Android. Privacy, well the sorry state of, is why I switched to Apple 2 years ago. There's some pressure to resolve privacy issues so Google changes (breaks) something minor. Something that in no way impacts the top 10 of privacy and tracking issues, so they can carry on selling ads and using data unaffected.
- ignoramous 8y ago
  > It seems like Google deliberately misses the point in all privacy related changes Harsh considering the fact that Google has been dedicating resources to privacy and took important steps to that affect with Android O [0] and Android P [1] and now with Android Q. They hosted a invite-only-industry-experts conference to understand the implications of wide-spread security and privacy issues with Android [2][3]. [0] https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/12/double-stuffed-security-in-android-oreo.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/12/double-stu... [1] https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2018/12/android-pie-la-mode-security-privacy.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2018/12/android-pi... [2] https://www.blog.google/technology/safety-security/project-strobe https://www.blog.google/technology/safety-security/project-s... [3] https://security.googleblog.com/2018/12/aspire-to-keep-protecting-billions-of.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/12/aspire-to-keep-prote...
  - deogeo 8y ago
    Privacy against everyone except Google: https://www.cnet.com/news/new-study-finds-google-android-is-sharing-even-more-data-than-we-thought/ https://www.cnet.com/news/new-study-finds-google-android-is-... You would think with all those privacy resources, Google would be able to stop itself from spying. Perhaps a few more conferences will help?
    - skybrian 8y ago
      Considering that the accuracy of the study it describes is disputed, that doesn't seem like a good link to back up your point?
      - deogeo 8y ago
        1.) Disputed by Google as 'misleading'. 2.) Try this link then: https://apnews.com/828aefab64d4411bac257a07c1af0ecb https://apnews.com/828aefab64d4411bac257a07c1af0ecb (note that these studies don't cover the UI dark patterns encouraging you to give up your privacy 'willingly') 3.) Are we really going to pretend Google's spying is such a fringe idea that it needs a citation to be believed, and not their main business model?
        skybrian 8y ago
        The problem with this sort of argument is that I struggle to understand how people are actually harmed. It seems like people assume that Google is harming people, somehow, but it's not spelled out. (It seems like collecting information, alone, shouldn't count as harm? It needs to be used for some bad purpose or disclosed to harm anyone.)
        deogeo 8y ago
        So now the goal has moved from proving Google is spying, to showing how that spying is harmful? But okay, lets go with it. First of all, the information is disclosed immediately - to Google. Then it's just a matter of how much more disclosed is gets. Surveillance has been shown to chill expression (https://www.cjfe.org/how_mass_surveillance_harms_societies_and_individuals_and_what_you_can_do_about_it https://www.cjfe.org/how_mass_surveillance_harms_societies_a..., https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/05/when-surveillance-chills-speech-new-studies-show-our-rights-free-association https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/05/when-surveillance-chil...), and even just metadata can be used to easily find whistleblowers (https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/how-team-of-pre-teens-found-whisteblower-using-metadata/8113668 https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/how-team-of-pre...). Will Google now or in the future offer services to help "secure corporate IP" by finding whistleblowers? Is it wise to assume they won't? Keep in mind all the information they gather now will be kept for when they want to misuse it later. What if they get served with a warrant for that information? Such as by a government agency that's helping to quash unions (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43507728 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43507728)? How certain are you that there's no company that, now or in the future, will offer services to employers to help identify employees with corporate-unfriendly political beliefs? Then there is the simple fact that information is power, and used to amass even more power, such as when Facebook used data gathered by Onavo to decide which apps to acquire (https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/12/05/facebooks-onavo-spying-app-shaped-monumental-decis.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/12/05/facebooks-onavo-sp...). So spying directly helps corporate giants maintain their monopolies. And all of that harm is without an authoritarian government in place. What about countries that aren't so lucky as to have a mostly freedom-respecting government? How sure are you your own country won't join them in the next ~50 years? Surveillance is a leash and collar around your neck - just because it's long enough now, doesn't mean you should wait to get it off.
addicted 8y ago
Not really. It seems to me Google releases features without privacy protections, which leads to som legitimate use, but also a lot of privacy abuse. People point out the privacy abuse, and they clamp down on those features. Obviously when they do so they are unable to cover all legitimate use cases immediately, so it’s useful to point out the edge cases they missed so they can work on supporting those edge cases going forward.

Ultramanoid 8y ago

This is throwing the baby with the bathtub, completely ridiculous. They could remove internet permission from all applications except Google's own Chrome, with that reasoning. Instead of removing clipboard permissions from all applications, make it a clear option so that the user can give it when needed or only to a specific application, for instance the essential clipboard manager -- that Android incomprehensibly doesn't have and never has, as part of its core. So far only third-party applications have provided this needed feature. Bundling clipboard with Google's keyboard ( or others like Swiftkey ) that come loaded with unnecessary permissions ( like internet -- I personally never use a keyboard with that permission ! ) and analytics packages is certainly not improving privacy at all.

jeswin 8y ago
I'd bet that less than 0.1% of users use a custom clipboard. Android's primary focus should be to make the OS secure for the nontechnical majority. These are people who don't understand permissions, and will click on app installer popups. IMHO this is a welcome move. An alternative would have been to deny all network access to clipboard apps - thereby ensuring that they are not able to steal any data.
- Ultramanoid 8y ago
  According to numbers of downloads of clipboard managers, it's probably much higher than that. But the reasoning doesn't stand. Like I said, they could remove all phony Chrome clones with massive analytics and calls home, of which there are dozens, with read and write storage permissions, internet permission, etc, the list goes on and on. And say only Chrome is allowed, or vetted browsers from known vendors, like Mozilla or Microsoft, they certainly should, but they don't do it. Yet they pick on an essential feature for anyone using copy and paste hundreds of times a day. There is much more danger in rogue browsers, by far, than in a clipboard manager. The solution is absolutely obvious. It isn't what they decided. It is just the first beta, but we'll see. It'd be ridiculous to need to have a text file always open in another application with constantly used bits of text, code, or info, and switch back and forth as needed multiplying a simple workflow by who knows how much in operations and time.

dplgk 8y ago

So don't fix actual privacy issues users complain about (i.e. Their whole business model), fix the supposed ones for tools that users enjoy and opt into so that you can feign caring about privacy.

jeroenhd 8y ago

I've never even thought about clipboard managers for Android. While I can see the lack of such tools might limit some users' productivity, I think the overal result of a change is still a positive one. I'd much rather see background clipboard access as a separate permission classified as "dangerous", but I doubt most people won't just click allow till the prompts stop happening. Maybe things would improve if aside from a permission, a notification would appear each time an app is accessing/has recently accessed the clipboard, with the option to mute notification sounds about specific apps. That way, background clipboard access is discouraged yet still available.

Ultramanoid 8y ago
There are many ways to do this. Off the top of my head right now, make it a developer option, off by default, and only accessible through the developer options menu, which also needs to be activated itself.
scarface74 8y ago
It’s even simpler. By default, for instance, third party keyboards don’t have network access and you have to explicitly go through settings to give it access and then you get a big scary warning.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

jaflo 8y ago

I think there should be an option to allow background access to the clipboard. I use a translation app that listens for a copy and pops up a translation on top of what I'm currently doing. I would prefer not to have to switch apps every time to do this.

anoncake 8y ago

Google must be trying to make people root their phones.

praneshp 8y ago
You'd think so. In reality, only a vocal and miniscule minority cares about such things. The sweet discounts and price cuts sells their phones really well to the majority

sschueller 8y ago

This will break all those apps that let you download/repost Instagram posts. I guess I will be abandoning the one I wrote.