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I disagree. There's no technical reason why an automated system couldn't be fully transparent to the end user about the criteria on which it is acting. That's n

I disagree. There's no technical reason why an automated system couldn't be fully transparent to the end user about the criteria on which it is acting. That's not the reason why. I mean, you're correct about the fact that putting a human in the loop costs too much at scale, which is why it doesn't happen, and that sucks when you're an edge case that gets shafted. But that tangential to the question of transparency. Even if there were people in the loop, they wouldn't be fully transparent about the actions they take for exactly the reason the parent comment said. It would make it easier for the bad actors trying to exploit the system.

rixed 8y ago
The human is not required for the transparency but for the possibility of appeal (last of the three bullet points)
- sparky_z 8y ago
  That's not the bullet point we were talking about, though.
benj111 8y ago
If for example I post a picture of myself in a skin coloured top, that gets automatically flagged as nudity, and I'm notified as such is that really transparency? Yes I know why the post was removed, but based on the stated no nudity rule, the post should have been ok. If we go one stage further and appeal (to the same algorithm). That too will presumably fail. So what we are left with is a set of rules, and a set of defacto rules, that don't match up. That I wouldn't say is transparency, except in a limited and meaningless sense.
- sparky_z 8y ago
  What's opaque about the situation you're describing? Everyone understands what happened and why. What other definition of transparent is there?
  - benj111 8y ago
    The rules as described and as implemented don't match. Saying you're doing something, when that something makes no sense and is unreasonable isn't transparency. Wikipedia's opening paragraph on transparency: "Transparency, as used in science, engineering, business, the humanities and in other social contexts, is operating in such a way that it is easy for others to see what actions are performed. Transparency implies openness, communication, and accountability. "[1] There is neither openness or accountability in my example. Yes in a narrow sense it is transparent, in the wider (I would say, most important) sense, it isn't. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_(behavior) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_(behavior)

rixed 8y ago

The human is not required for the transparency but for the possibility of appeal (last of the three bullet points)

sparky_z 8y ago
That's not the bullet point we were talking about, though.

benj111 8y ago

If for example I post a picture of myself in a skin coloured top, that gets automatically flagged as nudity, and I'm notified as such is that really transparency? Yes I know why the post was removed, but based on the stated no nudity rule, the post should have been ok. If we go one stage further and appeal (to the same algorithm). That too will presumably fail. So what we are left with is a set of rules, and a set of defacto rules, that don't match up. That I wouldn't say is transparency, except in a limited and meaningless sense.

sparky_z 8y ago
What's opaque about the situation you're describing? Everyone understands what happened and why. What other definition of transparent is there?
- benj111 8y ago
  The rules as described and as implemented don't match. Saying you're doing something, when that something makes no sense and is unreasonable isn't transparency. Wikipedia's opening paragraph on transparency: "Transparency, as used in science, engineering, business, the humanities and in other social contexts, is operating in such a way that it is easy for others to see what actions are performed. Transparency implies openness, communication, and accountability. "[1] There is neither openness or accountability in my example. Yes in a narrow sense it is transparent, in the wider (I would say, most important) sense, it isn't. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_(behavior) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_(behavior)