4 ms·

I'm largely in the anti-tax camp and I don't want that. Perhaps I'm just not in that martyrdom mindset enough to want such a thing... but even so it would be m

I'm largely in the anti-tax camp and I don't want that. Perhaps I'm just not in that martyrdom mindset enough to want such a thing... but even so it would be more of a gimmick than an argument. I don't like these kinds of stupid made up controversies when they come from people and groups I oppose and like them even less from my side of whatever political point is at stake. As others have mentioned, I do think there should be transparency. So, for example, the employer portions of payroll taxes (in the U.S.) is not usually visible to the employee on who's behalf it is paid; an employee doesn't see the full weight of taxes that ultimately derives from their labor... that to me is hiding, in a fashion, what my real gross pay is and what amount of my earnings is being taken.

rayiner 8y ago
> I'm largely in the anti-tax camp and I don't want that. I’m in the pro tax camp and I kind of like it. I enjoy paying my taxes, but I don’t think the government should take half of peoples’ paychecks without people having to think consciously about it every year.
- Hello71 8y ago
  Who exactly pays an average income tax rate of 50% in the United States? You'd have to be making hundreds of millions of dollars a year, at which point you don't get it as a check, you get it as a wire transfer from your investment bank, because with the exception of certain athletes, nobody makes that much money in salary.
  - sbuttgereit 8y ago
    If you're only looking at federal income taxes, sure. But now add in state income taxes, local taxes, property taxes, sales and use taxes, special fees and assessments, and other mandatory charges and that bar starts to move down the great chain of being rather rapidly. I assure you, I'm not making hundreds of millions of dollars and I'm pretty sure that I'm in that 50% range of dollars consumed by government takings per dollar earned.
    - mcny 8y ago
      Good! And I want it to be even higher. Specifically, I want to make federal income tax considerably steeper. I want to tax income above 100x the federal minimum wage (per hour minimum wage * 2000 or about $3M at $15 an hour) at 90%. I also want an absolute end to all tax credits and deductions besides the standard deduction. Say no to charitable deductions. No to first time home buyer credit. No to everything. Cut it all out. Yes, no credit or deductions for saving money toward your child's college or toward your retirement. Get rid of it all. That is my platform. Edit: I think it is incredibly Lazy to try to effect change in public behavior through taxes.
      - triplewipeass 8y ago
        What’s that noise? That’s you getting lynched by those of us who work for a living.
      - koolba 8y ago
        A 90% federal bracket, combined with 10+% State tax (ex: 12.3% top bracket in CA), combined with no deduction for State and local taxes (because only standard deduction right?), would mean you’d literally lose money by making more money.
        isoskeles 8y ago
        Don't forget an extra 3.8% Medicare tax.
        koolba 8y ago
        “Why you’d quit?” “I couldn’t afford not to!”
        mcny 8y ago
        » “I couldn’t afford not to!” States will adjust their income tax brackets if we make taxes at the federal level reasonable. Perhaps, reasonable people will prevail and it well end state and local income taxes (and increase property taxes to a reasonable level instead).
- sbuttgereit 8y ago
  As someone that is self-employed, and gets to pay that otherwise invisible bit I mentioned earlier myself... do I know about it? yes (I did as a hiring manager back in the day, too); do I think about it? yes... but there's an extra "implied" tax here because my time doing tax prep related work is also a cost in addition to the taxes. So I now get to spend hours that I could otherwise be productive with, or spend on leisure activities, on the problem of understanding what is being taken from me. As I said, I agree with you that people should be conscious of what is taken from them. People should make conscious informed decisions in many, many areas of their life. But to take that half their earnings and then insist that they spend hours of their own time (true even if they hire tax preparation services) just to be sure they don't lose more than they're legally required to is kinda rubbing salt in the wound isn't it? Of course you could hire accountants to deal with those issues, but now you're just changing that cost in time to cost in money.
- wutbrodo 8y ago
  I don't see how requiring tax filings changes anything here though. Filing taxes isn't where you pay taxes; that already happens silently and automatically whenever you get paid. Hell, the fact that it's so common for people to celebrate large refunds implies to me that, if anything, for most people tax filing is seen as something lucrative rather than a cost center. To put it another way, I'm not sure how much tax filing achieves your stated goal that wouldn't be achieved by an annual letter sent to taxpayers, accompanied by their refund.
  - sbuttgereit 8y ago
    "if anything, for most people tax filing is seen as something lucrative rather than a cost center." Be careful with this line of reasoning... you might give someone the idea that there should be 100% withholding of earnings and that filing tax returns should be more an application for the privilege receive some of the money you've earned. Then it would look more like it was the government paying all your wages! ...with socialism being all the rage these days, I wouldn't be so surprised to see this sort of thing endorsed....
- koboll 8y ago
  There's a wide gulf between "think consciously about it" and "fill out a ton of forms that are nearly useless because the IRS knows that information already, and now has to employ people to record hundreds of millions of handwritten scribblings of what they already know".
antaviana 8y ago
The same happens in Spain. My take is that by hiding those taxes to employees (voters), governments have a much smaller accountability perception than they would have if their voters (i.e. their customers) saw how much they are really paying to them.

rayiner 8y ago

> I'm largely in the anti-tax camp and I don't want that. I’m in the pro tax camp and I kind of like it. I enjoy paying my taxes, but I don’t think the government should take half of peoples’ paychecks without people having to think consciously about it every year.

Hello71 8y ago
Who exactly pays an average income tax rate of 50% in the United States? You'd have to be making hundreds of millions of dollars a year, at which point you don't get it as a check, you get it as a wire transfer from your investment bank, because with the exception of certain athletes, nobody makes that much money in salary.
- sbuttgereit 8y ago
  If you're only looking at federal income taxes, sure. But now add in state income taxes, local taxes, property taxes, sales and use taxes, special fees and assessments, and other mandatory charges and that bar starts to move down the great chain of being rather rapidly. I assure you, I'm not making hundreds of millions of dollars and I'm pretty sure that I'm in that 50% range of dollars consumed by government takings per dollar earned.
  - mcny 8y ago
    Good! And I want it to be even higher. Specifically, I want to make federal income tax considerably steeper. I want to tax income above 100x the federal minimum wage (per hour minimum wage * 2000 or about $3M at $15 an hour) at 90%. I also want an absolute end to all tax credits and deductions besides the standard deduction. Say no to charitable deductions. No to first time home buyer credit. No to everything. Cut it all out. Yes, no credit or deductions for saving money toward your child's college or toward your retirement. Get rid of it all. That is my platform. Edit: I think it is incredibly Lazy to try to effect change in public behavior through taxes.
    - triplewipeass 8y ago
      What’s that noise? That’s you getting lynched by those of us who work for a living.
    - koolba 8y ago
      A 90% federal bracket, combined with 10+% State tax (ex: 12.3% top bracket in CA), combined with no deduction for State and local taxes (because only standard deduction right?), would mean you’d literally lose money by making more money.
      - isoskeles 8y ago
        Don't forget an extra 3.8% Medicare tax.
        koolba 8y ago
        “Why you’d quit?” “I couldn’t afford not to!”
        mcny 8y ago
        » “I couldn’t afford not to!” States will adjust their income tax brackets if we make taxes at the federal level reasonable. Perhaps, reasonable people will prevail and it well end state and local income taxes (and increase property taxes to a reasonable level instead).
sbuttgereit 8y ago
As someone that is self-employed, and gets to pay that otherwise invisible bit I mentioned earlier myself... do I know about it? yes (I did as a hiring manager back in the day, too); do I think about it? yes... but there's an extra "implied" tax here because my time doing tax prep related work is also a cost in addition to the taxes. So I now get to spend hours that I could otherwise be productive with, or spend on leisure activities, on the problem of understanding what is being taken from me. As I said, I agree with you that people should be conscious of what is taken from them. People should make conscious informed decisions in many, many areas of their life. But to take that half their earnings and then insist that they spend hours of their own time (true even if they hire tax preparation services) just to be sure they don't lose more than they're legally required to is kinda rubbing salt in the wound isn't it? Of course you could hire accountants to deal with those issues, but now you're just changing that cost in time to cost in money.
wutbrodo 8y ago
I don't see how requiring tax filings changes anything here though. Filing taxes isn't where you pay taxes; that already happens silently and automatically whenever you get paid. Hell, the fact that it's so common for people to celebrate large refunds implies to me that, if anything, for most people tax filing is seen as something lucrative rather than a cost center. To put it another way, I'm not sure how much tax filing achieves your stated goal that wouldn't be achieved by an annual letter sent to taxpayers, accompanied by their refund.
- sbuttgereit 8y ago
  "if anything, for most people tax filing is seen as something lucrative rather than a cost center." Be careful with this line of reasoning... you might give someone the idea that there should be 100% withholding of earnings and that filing tax returns should be more an application for the privilege receive some of the money you've earned. Then it would look more like it was the government paying all your wages! ...with socialism being all the rage these days, I wouldn't be so surprised to see this sort of thing endorsed....
koboll 8y ago
There's a wide gulf between "think consciously about it" and "fill out a ton of forms that are nearly useless because the IRS knows that information already, and now has to employ people to record hundreds of millions of handwritten scribblings of what they already know".

antaviana 8y ago

The same happens in Spain. My take is that by hiding those taxes to employees (voters), governments have a much smaller accountability perception than they would have if their voters (i.e. their customers) saw how much they are really paying to them.