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"I'm going to quit unless you pay me more." Why doesn't that meet your definition? I'm threatening to do something legal (quit) unless you do something you don

by MR4D 8y ago

"I'm going to quit unless you pay me more." Why doesn't that meet your definition? I'm threatening to do something legal (quit) unless you do something you don't want to (pay more money). I'm confused.

airstrike 8y ago
Relationships between employees and employers are uneven by definition, so threatening to quit isn't really forcing your boss to pay you more.
- cortesoft 8y ago
  Threatening to reveal information is not really forcing someone to pay, either.
  - airstrike 8y ago
    It's exploiting their vulnerable state so that they feel they have no choice but to comply. There's an element of coercion. Clearly different from an employment relationship. You can't really coerce your boss.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      Practically, mostly true. Certainly one can construct scenarios where an employer has let too much depend on a single employee. Pay me $1m or I quit and you won’t be able to ship this product on which the company depends for survival.
virgilp 8y ago
What's wrong with the Wikipedia definition? > Blackmail is an act of coercion using the threat of revealing or publicizing either substantially true or false, and often damaging, information about a person, to the public, family members, or associates unless certain demands are met. It may involve using threats of physical, mental or emotional harm, or of criminal prosecution, against the victim or someone close to the victim
- magduf 8y ago
  Ok, but then how is it not extortion to demand a raise or else you'll quit?
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    I would think that in the history of civilization there have been many instances in which someone demanded a raise and threatened to quit, and their boss shouted "this is extortion!" It hasn't actually happened to me, but it is the sort of scenario I feel certain has happened.
  - virgilp 8y ago
    It’s quite simple, really: since you’re not a slave owner, i don’t belong to you, so the “threat” to quit can’t possibly be legally qualified as a threat (you never had the right to assume that I will continue to work for you beyond my notice period). It’s a contract negotiation, not a threat, so not extortion. The same way that “we will cut off the internet access if you don’t pay the internet bill” is not extortion from comcast, it’s just a statement of fact.
    - hopler 8y ago
      You don't have a right to prevent someone from telling secrets they know either.
      - virgilp 8y ago
        Actually, in some cases you do. But anyway, blackmail is not about telling secrets, it's about coercion under the threat of telling secrets. You know, kinda like how rape is about consent, not about preventing people from having sex.
    - magduf 8y ago
      I think it all comes down to semantics, and the exact definition of "threat". If you define threat as warning someone that you will do something that will negatively affect them, then threatening to quit absolutely qualifies as extortion, just as Comcast threatening to turn off your internet service if you don't pay your bill also qualifies as extortion. As I said in another post here, Wikipedia's definition of extortion is: ""Extortion, which is not limited to the taking of property, involves the verbal or written instillation of fear that something will happen to the victim if they do not comply with the extortionist's will." Getting your internet service is a negative thing, so and Comcast's will is for you to pay your bill, so I think it fits the definition of extortion here. As do all contract negotiations. In summary, I think these definitions need a lot of work.
magduf 8y ago
I think threatening to quit actually does qualify as extortion according to Wikipedia: "Extortion, which is not limited to the taking of property, involves the verbal or written instillation of fear that something will happen to the victim if they do not comply with the extortionist's will." Similarly, threatening to get a divorce, or break up with your SO, if they don't change their behavior, is also extortion under this definition. In fact, any kind of demand for something, or else there will be consequences (such as not buying from that company again, or severing a relationship) can be viewed as extortion it seems. Hopefully, the actual legal definition is written better than the Wikipedia definition...
HenryBemis 8y ago
A company that will get hurt if 1 person quits, does not deserve to be around. Also threat is "I will kill your children" (no I will not kill anyone's children!) The phrase "I will quit" is 100% within my legal rights and 100% NOT your legal right to stop me :) Now, if we have a contract that "I need to serve the contract or else $1000 penalty", I stil have the RIGHT to quit, and take me to court to get your $1000. If I cannot quit.. well.. that's slavery.

by MR4D 8y ago

airstrike 8y ago

Relationships between employees and employers are uneven by definition, so threatening to quit isn't really forcing your boss to pay you more.

cortesoft 8y ago
Threatening to reveal information is not really forcing someone to pay, either.
- airstrike 8y ago
  It's exploiting their vulnerable state so that they feel they have no choice but to comply. There's an element of coercion. Clearly different from an employment relationship. You can't really coerce your boss.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Practically, mostly true. Certainly one can construct scenarios where an employer has let too much depend on a single employee. Pay me $1m or I quit and you won’t be able to ship this product on which the company depends for survival.

virgilp 8y ago

What's wrong with the Wikipedia definition? > Blackmail is an act of coercion using the threat of revealing or publicizing either substantially true or false, and often damaging, information about a person, to the public, family members, or associates unless certain demands are met. It may involve using threats of physical, mental or emotional harm, or of criminal prosecution, against the victim or someone close to the victim

magduf 8y ago
Ok, but then how is it not extortion to demand a raise or else you'll quit?
- perl4ever 8y ago
  I would think that in the history of civilization there have been many instances in which someone demanded a raise and threatened to quit, and their boss shouted "this is extortion!" It hasn't actually happened to me, but it is the sort of scenario I feel certain has happened.
- virgilp 8y ago
  It’s quite simple, really: since you’re not a slave owner, i don’t belong to you, so the “threat” to quit can’t possibly be legally qualified as a threat (you never had the right to assume that I will continue to work for you beyond my notice period). It’s a contract negotiation, not a threat, so not extortion. The same way that “we will cut off the internet access if you don’t pay the internet bill” is not extortion from comcast, it’s just a statement of fact.
  - hopler 8y ago
    You don't have a right to prevent someone from telling secrets they know either.
    - virgilp 8y ago
      Actually, in some cases you do. But anyway, blackmail is not about telling secrets, it's about coercion under the threat of telling secrets. You know, kinda like how rape is about consent, not about preventing people from having sex.
  - magduf 8y ago
    I think it all comes down to semantics, and the exact definition of "threat". If you define threat as warning someone that you will do something that will negatively affect them, then threatening to quit absolutely qualifies as extortion, just as Comcast threatening to turn off your internet service if you don't pay your bill also qualifies as extortion. As I said in another post here, Wikipedia's definition of extortion is: ""Extortion, which is not limited to the taking of property, involves the verbal or written instillation of fear that something will happen to the victim if they do not comply with the extortionist's will." Getting your internet service is a negative thing, so and Comcast's will is for you to pay your bill, so I think it fits the definition of extortion here. As do all contract negotiations. In summary, I think these definitions need a lot of work.

magduf 8y ago

I think threatening to quit actually does qualify as extortion according to Wikipedia: "Extortion, which is not limited to the taking of property, involves the verbal or written instillation of fear that something will happen to the victim if they do not comply with the extortionist's will." Similarly, threatening to get a divorce, or break up with your SO, if they don't change their behavior, is also extortion under this definition. In fact, any kind of demand for something, or else there will be consequences (such as not buying from that company again, or severing a relationship) can be viewed as extortion it seems. Hopefully, the actual legal definition is written better than the Wikipedia definition...

HenryBemis 8y ago

A company that will get hurt if 1 person quits, does not deserve to be around. Also threat is "I will kill your children" (no I will not kill anyone's children!) The phrase "I will quit" is 100% within my legal rights and 100% NOT your legal right to stop me :) Now, if we have a contract that "I need to serve the contract or else $1000 penalty", I stil have the RIGHT to quit, and take me to court to get your $1000. If I cannot quit.. well.. that's slavery.