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I’m not so sure Hacker News is free of the same group. Post an article critical of China sometime and watch the comments. People genuinely posting opposing vi

I’m not so sure Hacker News is free of the same group. Post an article critical of China sometime and watch the comments. People genuinely posting opposing viewpoints is fine and normal but there is something very uncanny valley about most of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

MoronInAHurry 8y ago
It definitely seems to be happening here too, I've noticed it as well. Articles about China get very strange activity, including a lot more green names (new users) than you'd see in any other posts.
- naravara 8y ago
  Might this just be how ultra-nationalist types work? I’m less familiar with the dynamics in China, but with Indian politics any place where people are mildly critical of the Hindu Right can rapidly get brigaded. And it doesn’t usually seem all that organized or botlike. I think it’s just a country of a billion people with really bad liberal arts education and an extremely sensationalist media culture being unleashed on the web.
chapium 8y ago
Whether you post a nuanced view on China or criticize either side someone claims the other is a shill, a sympathizer, or a propagandist. By what mechanism can there be a real conversation online?
ssnistfajen 8y ago
The distinction is some of the anti-China submissions on HN are submitted for the sake of being anti-China, not because these posts "gratify one's intellectual curiosity". I do not consider geopolitical stories presented on the front page of mainstream media as something that "gratifies" my "intellectual curiosity" when I visit HN. I still read those off HN and I feel annoyed when I see them here, because they are not what I came here for. The gross generalizations and shill accusations (mostly thrown against users who actually post "genuinely opposing viewpoints") endemic to these China-related submissions are just icing on the cake.
dang 8y ago
I appreciate your concern for HN quality, but this kind of comment is the reason why we have a site guideline asking people not to insinuate astroturfing without evidence. If you think you're seeing abuse, the guidelines ask you to email hn@ycombinator.com with specific links so we can look at specific data. We always look. Occasionally we find it, and when we do, we crack down on it hard. But it's rare, unless you count users getting their friends to upvote their startup or whatever, which is a different phenomenon. And the cases we've seen have basically all been of corporate abuse, not nationalistic. Overwhelmingly the most common case is people accusing others of posting in bad faith merely because the other's view is so far from their own that they can't conceive of them having it for legit reasons. This is a reflexive reaction—a feeling that we all need to recognize and stop ourselves from expressing in raw form. When people vent it into comments, the result is either war between the two sides, or, if one side outnumbers the other, an ugly mob dynamic in which a few people are ganged up on for being different. Those few either leave, or they become resentful and break the site guidelines badly themselves, as a way of lashing back against unfair treatment. All these outcomes poison the community. Not to pick on you personally—it happens because of how human nature reacts to the weird conditions of the internet, which we're not wired for. It is hard for all of us to grasp how large and diverse the community is, and how divided it is on divisive topics. Nationalistic themes are some of the most divisive ones, and unfortunately are growing more common these days. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- afpx 8y ago
  Dang, are you able to report statistics on how many accounts have been banned or considered suspicious? I don’t doubt that HN takes this issue very seriously. But, it would be useful to some of us to see how often astroturfing actually happens here (and from which countries it seems to come from).
  - dang 8y ago
    I don't have anything exact, but we've banned perhaps a dozen networks of accounts for corporate astroturfing over the years. Cases where the issue was nationalistic are much rarer. I recall only one, and it was years ago. (That of course is not to claim we aren't missing some.) If we go by the data we actually see, the phenomenon itself is vanishingly rare. Why is there so much commentary then? I can think of two explanations: either the foreign spies are cleverer than we are, or there is something in how human nature meets the internet under current social conditions that is leading to mass projection. And of course it could be both—but how are any claims about the former falsifiable?
vkou 8y ago
I find that when an article about China is posted on HN, for the problematic posts, there's about an 90/10 split between two groups of trolls: 1. People who disregard everything about TFA, to remind everyone for the five hundredth time about <some unrelated crime by CPC>, and <why are we still trading with them>, and <can't we just build a wall around it>, and <the Chinese come here to steal all our things>. These posts, depending on how inflammatory they are, or what side of the bed HN woke up on, tend to hover slightly positive. 2. Green-named accounts speaking in... Non-perfect English, praising some aspect of China. These usually get downvoted to oblivion. There's also a lot number of posts that express more-reasoned/more-on-topic pro/anti-China viewpoints. I don't consider them to be trolling, and I don't really care what colors the names of the people posting them are.
- CoolGuySteve 8y ago
  Regarding your first point, we see the same sort posts anytime there's an article about C/C++ or a vulnerability that states something about how unmanaged languages should be condemned. It's not restricted to just political topics. And while they may have a point, they're often off-topic whataboutism. I believe it's a natural outcome of gamifying discussions with imaginary internet point rewards. The first and most eloquent post that's congruent with the hivemind "wins". It's just human nature.
- JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
  I would add- 3. Instant whataboutism used, even if not appropriate or applicable. If you read about the directives of the 50 Cent Party or the old Soviet propaganda machine, this is one of the universal tools used to derail the discussion from the topic at hand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/trolling-by-distraction/514589/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/troll... Now could this just be normal posters using whataboutism? Sure, but we all spend a lot of time on the internet and listening to arguments, it's basically the language of the internet at this point. And you can just get a feel when something is authentic and when it is not, like a bank teller when they get a counterfeit bill and they can tell something is not right.
NoodleIncident 8y ago
At least they're relatively easy to spot, due to how different English and (presumably) Mandarin are as languages. Check out the quotes from the banned user(s) in TFA, almost all of them have some sort of grammatical error. I've seen comments here with similar errors, pushing extremely pro-china arguments while not actually saying they're from China themselves. I think the recent issue with the harassment of the Tibetan student council president(?) by Chinese students shows that it doesn't matter whether it's government-sponsored "trolling" or not. If your government punishes people who aren't outspoken in favor of the Party while abroad, then those people are still shilling on behalf of the Party, even if they're not actually paid to do so.
- fireattack 8y ago
  This type of comments similar to what you made are the worst and that's why while I tried my best to avoid political "discussions" here (not like there is any room for a two-sided discussion), I still can't stop myself to type this. I know my comment probably will just reinforce your prejudice/bias, and make you laugh and say "wow see what I said? Another troll started to attack me immediately!!", but I don't care. > At least they're relatively easy to spot,.. sort of grammatical error Yeah, because they're Chinese, who are using their second language. It is indeed easy to spot non-native speakers (or Chinese if you will), how does it have anything to do whether they're "government shills" or not? Just because people have a different view from you, and the fact they come from China, don't make them government shills. There are plenty of actual Chinese people like me lurking here (mainly to read tech news). > while not actually saying they're from China themselves Since when people need to reveal their nationality to make an argument or opinion on Internet? Should I claim HN are full of "Western trolls", because the anti-China threads/comments here are probably 10x the amount of the pro-China ones (the ratio would be close to 100:1 on some subreddits like /r/worldnews), and 99% never actually "reveal where are they from" (including you)? Just to save you a click: I'm a Chinese and I often be frank about it. I don't think it should be necessary, since people should judge my comment purely based on what I said, not where I'm from; but because of people like you I have to do so otherwise my comments will be downvoted to oblivion. > those people are still shilling on behalf of the Party, even if they're not actually paid to do so Wow. Brilliant, now we don't even need any evidence to proof these Chinese people are shills (not like there is any to begin with, besides they are somewhat pro-China in SOME ASPECTS), they AUTOMATICALLY are.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

MoronInAHurry 8y ago

It definitely seems to be happening here too, I've noticed it as well. Articles about China get very strange activity, including a lot more green names (new users) than you'd see in any other posts.

naravara 8y ago
Might this just be how ultra-nationalist types work? I’m less familiar with the dynamics in China, but with Indian politics any place where people are mildly critical of the Hindu Right can rapidly get brigaded. And it doesn’t usually seem all that organized or botlike. I think it’s just a country of a billion people with really bad liberal arts education and an extremely sensationalist media culture being unleashed on the web.

chapium 8y ago

Whether you post a nuanced view on China or criticize either side someone claims the other is a shill, a sympathizer, or a propagandist. By what mechanism can there be a real conversation online?

ssnistfajen 8y ago

The distinction is some of the anti-China submissions on HN are submitted for the sake of being anti-China, not because these posts "gratify one's intellectual curiosity". I do not consider geopolitical stories presented on the front page of mainstream media as something that "gratifies" my "intellectual curiosity" when I visit HN. I still read those off HN and I feel annoyed when I see them here, because they are not what I came here for. The gross generalizations and shill accusations (mostly thrown against users who actually post "genuinely opposing viewpoints") endemic to these China-related submissions are just icing on the cake.

dang 8y ago

I appreciate your concern for HN quality, but this kind of comment is the reason why we have a site guideline asking people not to insinuate astroturfing without evidence. If you think you're seeing abuse, the guidelines ask you to email hn@ycombinator.com with specific links so we can look at specific data. We always look. Occasionally we find it, and when we do, we crack down on it hard. But it's rare, unless you count users getting their friends to upvote their startup or whatever, which is a different phenomenon. And the cases we've seen have basically all been of corporate abuse, not nationalistic. Overwhelmingly the most common case is people accusing others of posting in bad faith merely because the other's view is so far from their own that they can't conceive of them having it for legit reasons. This is a reflexive reaction—a feeling that we all need to recognize and stop ourselves from expressing in raw form. When people vent it into comments, the result is either war between the two sides, or, if one side outnumbers the other, an ugly mob dynamic in which a few people are ganged up on for being different. Those few either leave, or they become resentful and break the site guidelines badly themselves, as a way of lashing back against unfair treatment. All these outcomes poison the community. Not to pick on you personally—it happens because of how human nature reacts to the weird conditions of the internet, which we're not wired for. It is hard for all of us to grasp how large and diverse the community is, and how divided it is on divisive topics. Nationalistic themes are some of the most divisive ones, and unfortunately are growing more common these days. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

afpx 8y ago
Dang, are you able to report statistics on how many accounts have been banned or considered suspicious? I don’t doubt that HN takes this issue very seriously. But, it would be useful to some of us to see how often astroturfing actually happens here (and from which countries it seems to come from).
- dang 8y ago
  I don't have anything exact, but we've banned perhaps a dozen networks of accounts for corporate astroturfing over the years. Cases where the issue was nationalistic are much rarer. I recall only one, and it was years ago. (That of course is not to claim we aren't missing some.) If we go by the data we actually see, the phenomenon itself is vanishingly rare. Why is there so much commentary then? I can think of two explanations: either the foreign spies are cleverer than we are, or there is something in how human nature meets the internet under current social conditions that is leading to mass projection. And of course it could be both—but how are any claims about the former falsifiable?

vkou 8y ago

I find that when an article about China is posted on HN, for the problematic posts, there's about an 90/10 split between two groups of trolls: 1. People who disregard everything about TFA, to remind everyone for the five hundredth time about <some unrelated crime by CPC>, and <why are we still trading with them>, and <can't we just build a wall around it>, and <the Chinese come here to steal all our things>. These posts, depending on how inflammatory they are, or what side of the bed HN woke up on, tend to hover slightly positive. 2. Green-named accounts speaking in... Non-perfect English, praising some aspect of China. These usually get downvoted to oblivion. There's also a lot number of posts that express more-reasoned/more-on-topic pro/anti-China viewpoints. I don't consider them to be trolling, and I don't really care what colors the names of the people posting them are.

CoolGuySteve 8y ago
Regarding your first point, we see the same sort posts anytime there's an article about C/C++ or a vulnerability that states something about how unmanaged languages should be condemned. It's not restricted to just political topics. And while they may have a point, they're often off-topic whataboutism. I believe it's a natural outcome of gamifying discussions with imaginary internet point rewards. The first and most eloquent post that's congruent with the hivemind "wins". It's just human nature.
JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
I would add- 3. Instant whataboutism used, even if not appropriate or applicable. If you read about the directives of the 50 Cent Party or the old Soviet propaganda machine, this is one of the universal tools used to derail the discussion from the topic at hand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/trolling-by-distraction/514589/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/troll... Now could this just be normal posters using whataboutism? Sure, but we all spend a lot of time on the internet and listening to arguments, it's basically the language of the internet at this point. And you can just get a feel when something is authentic and when it is not, like a bank teller when they get a counterfeit bill and they can tell something is not right.

NoodleIncident 8y ago

At least they're relatively easy to spot, due to how different English and (presumably) Mandarin are as languages. Check out the quotes from the banned user(s) in TFA, almost all of them have some sort of grammatical error. I've seen comments here with similar errors, pushing extremely pro-china arguments while not actually saying they're from China themselves. I think the recent issue with the harassment of the Tibetan student council president(?) by Chinese students shows that it doesn't matter whether it's government-sponsored "trolling" or not. If your government punishes people who aren't outspoken in favor of the Party while abroad, then those people are still shilling on behalf of the Party, even if they're not actually paid to do so.

fireattack 8y ago
This type of comments similar to what you made are the worst and that's why while I tried my best to avoid political "discussions" here (not like there is any room for a two-sided discussion), I still can't stop myself to type this. I know my comment probably will just reinforce your prejudice/bias, and make you laugh and say "wow see what I said? Another troll started to attack me immediately!!", but I don't care. > At least they're relatively easy to spot,.. sort of grammatical error Yeah, because they're Chinese, who are using their second language. It is indeed easy to spot non-native speakers (or Chinese if you will), how does it have anything to do whether they're "government shills" or not? Just because people have a different view from you, and the fact they come from China, don't make them government shills. There are plenty of actual Chinese people like me lurking here (mainly to read tech news). > while not actually saying they're from China themselves Since when people need to reveal their nationality to make an argument or opinion on Internet? Should I claim HN are full of "Western trolls", because the anti-China threads/comments here are probably 10x the amount of the pro-China ones (the ratio would be close to 100:1 on some subreddits like /r/worldnews), and 99% never actually "reveal where are they from" (including you)? Just to save you a click: I'm a Chinese and I often be frank about it. I don't think it should be necessary, since people should judge my comment purely based on what I said, not where I'm from; but because of people like you I have to do so otherwise my comments will be downvoted to oblivion. > those people are still shilling on behalf of the Party, even if they're not actually paid to do so Wow. Brilliant, now we don't even need any evidence to proof these Chinese people are shills (not like there is any to begin with, besides they are somewhat pro-China in SOME ASPECTS), they AUTOMATICALLY are.

deleted 8y ago

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