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Having been involved in the community for most of my life, my very first thought was "oh that's cool he's one of us" and then I remembered that historically hac

Having been involved in the community for most of my life, my very first thought was "oh that's cool he's one of us" and then I remembered that historically hackers have been phenomenally bad people to give any kind of real power to.

duxup 8y ago
There's a wonderful glamorization of hackers and so forth. It's so appealing to think of some folks fighting the man from their keyboards and doing good things. So much so we have seen tech enthusiasts fawn over hacking groups from time to time and ignore less desirable behavior ... until we realize in the end they're just not what we want them / imagine them to be. I still like to think of there being some idealistic hackers one day that will change the world for the better, but I recognize they're still going to be just, people.
- dontbenebby 8y ago
  IMHO, the best hackers aren't forming groups and vying for "cred". They're quietly building their skills and exploring, while avoiding the spotlight at all costs.
  - duxup 8y ago
    It seems like everyone who gets caught is because they're talking about it online.
    - dontbenebby 8y ago
      or living a lavish lifestyle ala Paul Le Roux https://magazine.atavist.com/he-always-had-a-dark-side https://magazine.atavist.com/he-always-had-a-dark-side
dmos62 8y ago
> historically hackers have been phenomenally bad people to give any kind of real power to Do you have any examples?
- hi5eyes 8y ago
  hackers generally dont like rules, as a start. the ethos for most is not really in line with positions of authority
- busterarm 8y ago
  The laundry list of drama, infighting, bullying, sexual assaults, forcing people to take drugs, stealing research, etc., probably wouldn't have any context to an outsider. And most of what happens to people in this community occurs behind their backs.
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  The guy behind The Daily Stormer, Andrew Auernheimer?
- txcwpalpha 8y ago
  Paul Leroux comes to mind. It also really depends on who you consider to be a "hacker". To some people, Zuckerberg fits the description (though he is a different type of hacker, moreso the "hacker" of "Hacker News"), and I think most would agree he would be a terrible politician.
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
    Was Leroux given power or did he take it, though? I'd posit that there may be differences between hackers that are given power and "power hungry" hackers that crave/seek/take power. There are then further differences between those power hungry hackers that only operate legally and those that are willing to do illegal things. I guess I'm just trying to say that Beto doesn't seem to be trying to take power the way that Leroux did so the comparison may not be as valid.
- AceyMan 8y ago
  To my mind, Mark Zuckerberg fits here. (He wasn't "given" power, but the end result is much the same.)
  - 8y ago
Deinos 8y ago
Feels like it would be no worse than the current group of morally bankrupt, easily bribed, self-centered politicians in power.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  It seems unlikely that the new group would be more moral, less easily bribed, and less self-centered. There's nothing unique to the generation of politicians currently in power.
ProAm 8y ago
I like the idea of a politician who doesn't need someone to hand them a Fisher-Price 'My first iPhone' and explain to them how a computer works in a congressional session.
- WC3w6pXxgGd 8y ago
  I'd rather politicians have no idea how technology works so they can leave us the hell alone.
dontbenebby 8y ago
>then I remembered that historically hackers have been phenomenally bad people to give any kind of real power to. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm a hacker, and I'd make a terrible president. I might make an excelled trusted advisor on matters of my expertise, but that doesn't mean I'd be a good president.
ddebernardy 8y ago
> and then I remembered that historically hackers have been phenomenally bad people to give any kind of real power to. I'm confused... Doesn't that also apply to career lawmakers? Is there any statistically meaningful data to suggest it's better to have a lawyer or a judge than a hacker in a position of power?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
xmlblog 8y ago
> then I remembered that historically hackers have been phenomenally bad people to give any kind of real power to. As opposed to the paragons of virtue who wield power now.
njepa 8y ago
~80/90s hackers aren't really the same thing as most post 00 hackers. A lot of people were in it because they were curious about this new thing and the opportunities to explore something and express themselves. The same way you would in other emerging cultures. Those aren't bad qualities.
- brandonmenc 8y ago
  > ~80/90s hackers aren't really the same thing as most post 00 hackers. Yeah, no hackers from the 80s and 90s ever had any bad intents. /sarcasm
  - dpe82 8y ago
    The meaning of the word has changed somewhat; it was mostly about curiosity and exploration in the 80s/90s. Less of the economy was reliant on computers so there wasn't much crime to commit beyond mere unauthorized access. Heck, "2600: The Hacker Quarterly" could be found on the magazine rack at Barnes & Noble back then.
    - busterarm 8y ago
      And minor celebrities within 2600's culture, namely Emmanuel and Cpt. Crunch used that celebrity to creep on teenaged dudes.
      - flycaliguy 8y ago
        I listened to Off The Hook for years. Is that true about Emmanuel? Dude used to own an old Bell van, super creepy if he was a phreak creep.
    - jandrese 8y ago
      2600 was on the B&N newsracks for many many years. I think most people passed over it as a nerdy nerd thing.
    - tptacek 8y ago
peterwwillis 8y ago
There have been a few bad hackers, and thousands upon thousands of ones that haven't done anything bad at all. The knowledge that hackers have is immensely powerful. Hackers know how to root boxes, take down networks, pick locks, impersonate people, infiltrate virtually any secure area, falsify records, circumvent protection devices... They can steal from banks, screw with the phone system... hell, they can hack into cars on the highway. The ones with government jobs can screw with entire countries' telecom systems, disable satellites, jam telecommunications, spoof and reroute individual communications, and cause rolling waves of disruption to the power grid across entire regions of a country. Hackers have the knowledge to systematically destabilize virtually all the infrastructure of our civilization. But a small handful of people do dumb shit and suddenly all hackers aren't trustworthy? The fact that the world still operates at all is testament to the fact that they aren't abusing their power.
throwaway031519 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division

duxup 8y ago

There's a wonderful glamorization of hackers and so forth. It's so appealing to think of some folks fighting the man from their keyboards and doing good things. So much so we have seen tech enthusiasts fawn over hacking groups from time to time and ignore less desirable behavior ... until we realize in the end they're just not what we want them / imagine them to be. I still like to think of there being some idealistic hackers one day that will change the world for the better, but I recognize they're still going to be just, people.

dontbenebby 8y ago
IMHO, the best hackers aren't forming groups and vying for "cred". They're quietly building their skills and exploring, while avoiding the spotlight at all costs.
- duxup 8y ago
  It seems like everyone who gets caught is because they're talking about it online.
  - dontbenebby 8y ago
    or living a lavish lifestyle ala Paul Le Roux https://magazine.atavist.com/he-always-had-a-dark-side https://magazine.atavist.com/he-always-had-a-dark-side

dmos62 8y ago

> historically hackers have been phenomenally bad people to give any kind of real power to Do you have any examples?

hi5eyes 8y ago
hackers generally dont like rules, as a start. the ethos for most is not really in line with positions of authority
busterarm 8y ago
The laundry list of drama, infighting, bullying, sexual assaults, forcing people to take drugs, stealing research, etc., probably wouldn't have any context to an outsider. And most of what happens to people in this community occurs behind their backs.
stevenwoo 8y ago
The guy behind The Daily Stormer, Andrew Auernheimer?
txcwpalpha 8y ago
Paul Leroux comes to mind. It also really depends on who you consider to be a "hacker". To some people, Zuckerberg fits the description (though he is a different type of hacker, moreso the "hacker" of "Hacker News"), and I think most would agree he would be a terrible politician.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
  Was Leroux given power or did he take it, though? I'd posit that there may be differences between hackers that are given power and "power hungry" hackers that crave/seek/take power. There are then further differences between those power hungry hackers that only operate legally and those that are willing to do illegal things. I guess I'm just trying to say that Beto doesn't seem to be trying to take power the way that Leroux did so the comparison may not be as valid.
AceyMan 8y ago
To my mind, Mark Zuckerberg fits here. (He wasn't "given" power, but the end result is much the same.)
- 8y ago

Deinos 8y ago

Feels like it would be no worse than the current group of morally bankrupt, easily bribed, self-centered politicians in power.

ceejayoz 8y ago
It seems unlikely that the new group would be more moral, less easily bribed, and less self-centered. There's nothing unique to the generation of politicians currently in power.

ProAm 8y ago

I like the idea of a politician who doesn't need someone to hand them a Fisher-Price 'My first iPhone' and explain to them how a computer works in a congressional session.

WC3w6pXxgGd 8y ago
I'd rather politicians have no idea how technology works so they can leave us the hell alone.

dontbenebby 8y ago

>then I remembered that historically hackers have been phenomenally bad people to give any kind of real power to. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm a hacker, and I'd make a terrible president. I might make an excelled trusted advisor on matters of my expertise, but that doesn't mean I'd be a good president.

ddebernardy 8y ago

> and then I remembered that historically hackers have been phenomenally bad people to give any kind of real power to. I'm confused... Doesn't that also apply to career lawmakers? Is there any statistically meaningful data to suggest it's better to have a lawyer or a judge than a hacker in a position of power?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

xmlblog 8y ago

> then I remembered that historically hackers have been phenomenally bad people to give any kind of real power to. As opposed to the paragons of virtue who wield power now.

njepa 8y ago

~80/90s hackers aren't really the same thing as most post 00 hackers. A lot of people were in it because they were curious about this new thing and the opportunities to explore something and express themselves. The same way you would in other emerging cultures. Those aren't bad qualities.

brandonmenc 8y ago
> ~80/90s hackers aren't really the same thing as most post 00 hackers. Yeah, no hackers from the 80s and 90s ever had any bad intents. /sarcasm
- dpe82 8y ago
  The meaning of the word has changed somewhat; it was mostly about curiosity and exploration in the 80s/90s. Less of the economy was reliant on computers so there wasn't much crime to commit beyond mere unauthorized access. Heck, "2600: The Hacker Quarterly" could be found on the magazine rack at Barnes & Noble back then.
  - busterarm 8y ago
    And minor celebrities within 2600's culture, namely Emmanuel and Cpt. Crunch used that celebrity to creep on teenaged dudes.
    - flycaliguy 8y ago
      I listened to Off The Hook for years. Is that true about Emmanuel? Dude used to own an old Bell van, super creepy if he was a phreak creep.
  - jandrese 8y ago
    2600 was on the B&N newsracks for many many years. I think most people passed over it as a nerdy nerd thing.
  - tptacek 8y ago

peterwwillis 8y ago

There have been a few bad hackers, and thousands upon thousands of ones that haven't done anything bad at all. The knowledge that hackers have is immensely powerful. Hackers know how to root boxes, take down networks, pick locks, impersonate people, infiltrate virtually any secure area, falsify records, circumvent protection devices... They can steal from banks, screw with the phone system... hell, they can hack into cars on the highway. The ones with government jobs can screw with entire countries' telecom systems, disable satellites, jam telecommunications, spoof and reroute individual communications, and cause rolling waves of disruption to the power grid across entire regions of a country. Hackers have the knowledge to systematically destabilize virtually all the infrastructure of our civilization. But a small handful of people do dumb shit and suddenly all hackers aren't trustworthy? The fact that the world still operates at all is testament to the fact that they aren't abusing their power.

throwaway031519 8y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division