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You could not make a more dishonest selections: >For example, in the last five years Tesla has had more health and safety violations in their factory than the

You could not make a more dishonest selections: >For example, in the last five years Tesla has had more health and safety violations in their factory than the top ten automakers in the US combined Because Tesla manufactures all its car in California, which has far stricter rules than other states. If other manufacturers moved their production there, Tesla would rank better than the competition >Tesla cars have among the worst reliability of any car brand And yet, Tesla owners keep recommending their cars more than anyone else, because the car is that good. There are many things that might no be "highly reliable" (even important things, like cars) that are so great to use that you'd buy them again against the current alternatives (like a Tesla vs noisy, polluting, gas-guzzling vehicles). >In 2018, Toyota and Volkswagen each sold over 10 million cars So what? How many of them are EVs? One could wonder how Nokia's sales were going when the iPhone started becoming mainstream… >Volkswagen is starting its push into EVs. They've been starting since 2009. >Porsche, Audi, VW, Skoda, and SEAT to start And yet, we just learned (no later than last month) that they are changing all their EV plan because their future models cannot compete with the current Model 3 (source: https://www.manager-magazin.de/premium/audi-bram-schot-will-tempo-machen-a-00000000-0002-0001-0000-000161978234 https://www.manager-magazin.de/premium/audi-bram-schot-will-...) Two quotes from this article: >The Porsche and Audi engineers have to change [the Premium Platform Electric program] because Tesla’s Model 3 has gotten better than they thought. >The e-tron as the first electric Audi is not only late. It does not reach some target values and has become far too expensive with more than two billion euros in development costs. The approximately 600,000 cars sold for the break-even are now regarded as an illusion. >Volkswagen also wants to license its MEB electric car platform to other manufacturers. They already have one licensee Oh, you mean the MEB platform that is being holding up until they can come up with something that is on par with Tesla tech and cost? Ah!

clouddrover 8y ago
> You could not make a more dishonest selections So I'm dishonest, Forbes is dishonest, Consumer Reports is dishonest, TrueDelta is dishonest, Autoblog is dishonest, Reuters is dishonest, Wikipedia is dishonest, and CleanTechnica is dishonest. We're all dishonest together. > So what? So they operate on a larger scale and they're better at making and selling cars than Tesla is. There's no point crying about it. These are simply the basic realities.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  You know what a selection is? >So they operate on a larger scale and they're better at making and selling cars than Tesla is You don't get it. They're better at making and selling ICE cars. Not EVs. No one is discussing the fact that established manufacturers are established, the issue here is the disruption. Remember that Tesla is eating up market shares fast and at an increasing pace, and they already produce more than 50% of the entire battery market (including smartphones, stationary storage, EV, etc). If you're forward looking, you could say Tesla "operates on a larger scale and is better at making and selling EVs". This reality may not be easy to recognize.
  - clouddrover 8y ago
    > the issue here is the disruption. What disruption? Tesla is already behind on technology and soon they're going to be behind on volume. The CCS charging networks are deploying 350 kW chargers, Tesla is not. Volkswagen is introducing the first 800 volt cars, Tesla is not.
vlozko 8y ago
> Because Tesla manufactures all its car in California, which has far stricter rules than other states. If other manufacturers moved their production there, Tesla would rank better than the competition That's just conjecture. Tesla has had a reputation of not being safe because of things like this: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/04/tesla-workers-getting-hurt-because-elon-musk-hates-yellow.html http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/04/tesla-workers-getting... > And yet, Tesla owners keep recommending their cars more than anyone else, because the car is that good. How does that make the original statement false? If anything, it establishes a pattern where Tesla owners are far more likely to overlook these issues because of how much they like their car. > So what? How many of them are EVs? One could wonder how Nokia's sales were going when the iPhone started becoming mainstream… The OP was pointing out that some people are looking through a subjective lens when they claim that Tesla is crushing it. In a broader picture when you look into the sale of all cars, it's really not as significant. Ok, so these cars are not EVs. So what? It's not enough to say you're dominant in a niche, albeit a growing one. When you're not on equal footing as some of the bigger name car companies, you're much more susceptible to being crushed competitively if those companies make a play in the same space. I'm not at all saying that will happen, just that looking at this point requires a bigger, broader perspective.
- sergiosgc 8y ago
  > It's not enough to say you're dominant in a niche, albeit a growing one. When you're facing technology transitions, looking at it as a niche is exactly the wrong perspective. Tesla is dominant in a field which is the future of automotive transportation. It is a small market not because it is a niche but because it is nascent. The difference is, strategically, very relevant. ICE automakers are just realizing how far behind Tesla they are. I'd wager at least ten years. The model S was launched in 2012, VW et al won't be able to launch a similar offer before 2022.
  - clouddrover 8y ago
    > VW et al won't be able to launch a similar offer before 2022. Volkswagen will launch multiple models across multiple brands before 2022. The Porsche Taycan is launching before 2022: https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/09/porche-taycan-ev-20-000-reservations/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/09/porche-taycan-ev-20-000-... https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a21239621/porsche-taycan-mission-e-electric/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a21239... And the VW ID Neo: https://electrek.co/2019/03/13/vw-id-electric-hatchback-pre-orders-open-may-8-production-september/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/13/vw-id-electric-hatchback-pre-... And the VW ID Crozz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8zbuvzEA5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8zbuvzEA5A And the Audi e-tron Q4: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/audi-q4-e-tron-concept-geneva-motor-show/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/audi-q4-e-tron-concept-ge... And the Audi e-tron GT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsXhl3ilU9I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsXhl3ilU9I And the Skoda Vision IV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O72uf9DNakk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O72uf9DNakk And the SEAT el-Born: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umwlXFoSAD8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umwlXFoSAD8
dforrestwilson 8y ago
>Tesla cars have among the worst reliability of any car brand And yet, Tesla owners keep recommending their cars more than anyone else, because the car is that good. Do you have a source for this?
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  >Owners appear to like, even love, the Model 3. It received top marks in CR’s recent owner satisfaction survey and also earned a positive road-test score. It’s a weird duality — and one the even CR acknowledges — that other aspirational, lifestyle and luxury vehicles share. Owners love the vehicles, despite persistent issues with the components inside them. https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/21/tesla-model-3-loses-consumer-reports-recommendation-over-reliability-problems/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/21/tesla-model-3-loses-consum...
cc439 8y ago
>Because Tesla manufactures all its car in California, which has far stricter rules than other states. If other manufacturers moved their production there, Tesla would rank better than the competition I just want to point out that Tesla's California plant is Just the old GM/Toyota NUMMI plant. The article insinuates the safety violations are greater than any US based plant operated by other manufacturers over the past 10 years, a time period which includes the era in which GM/Toyota ran the very same plant.
- labcomputer 8y ago
  NUMMI was sold to Tesla in 2010, and Toyota/GM had basically stopped operations by mid 2009. I’m not sure how one year of super low production is comparable to Tesla’s operation.
mikestew 8y ago
>Tesla cars have among the worst reliability of any car brand And yet, Tesla owners keep recommending their cars more than anyone else, because the car is that good. You know what that exchange reminds me of? Harley-Davidson motorcycles, back in the AMF days. Those bikes were known for being unreliable pieces of crap that would shake their own bolts loose. Wear comfortable boots if you own one. And yet their owners wouldn't be caught dead riding anything else. I argue that when you spend nearly $100 on a car (or big bucks on a bike), what else are you going to say? "I'm an idiot and shouldn't be trusted with large sums of money."?

clouddrover 8y ago

> You could not make a more dishonest selections So I'm dishonest, Forbes is dishonest, Consumer Reports is dishonest, TrueDelta is dishonest, Autoblog is dishonest, Reuters is dishonest, Wikipedia is dishonest, and CleanTechnica is dishonest. We're all dishonest together. > So what? So they operate on a larger scale and they're better at making and selling cars than Tesla is. There's no point crying about it. These are simply the basic realities.

rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
You know what a selection is? >So they operate on a larger scale and they're better at making and selling cars than Tesla is You don't get it. They're better at making and selling ICE cars. Not EVs. No one is discussing the fact that established manufacturers are established, the issue here is the disruption. Remember that Tesla is eating up market shares fast and at an increasing pace, and they already produce more than 50% of the entire battery market (including smartphones, stationary storage, EV, etc). If you're forward looking, you could say Tesla "operates on a larger scale and is better at making and selling EVs". This reality may not be easy to recognize.
- clouddrover 8y ago
  > the issue here is the disruption. What disruption? Tesla is already behind on technology and soon they're going to be behind on volume. The CCS charging networks are deploying 350 kW chargers, Tesla is not. Volkswagen is introducing the first 800 volt cars, Tesla is not.

vlozko 8y ago

> Because Tesla manufactures all its car in California, which has far stricter rules than other states. If other manufacturers moved their production there, Tesla would rank better than the competition That's just conjecture. Tesla has had a reputation of not being safe because of things like this: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/04/tesla-workers-getting-hurt-because-elon-musk-hates-yellow.html http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/04/tesla-workers-getting... > And yet, Tesla owners keep recommending their cars more than anyone else, because the car is that good. How does that make the original statement false? If anything, it establishes a pattern where Tesla owners are far more likely to overlook these issues because of how much they like their car. > So what? How many of them are EVs? One could wonder how Nokia's sales were going when the iPhone started becoming mainstream… The OP was pointing out that some people are looking through a subjective lens when they claim that Tesla is crushing it. In a broader picture when you look into the sale of all cars, it's really not as significant. Ok, so these cars are not EVs. So what? It's not enough to say you're dominant in a niche, albeit a growing one. When you're not on equal footing as some of the bigger name car companies, you're much more susceptible to being crushed competitively if those companies make a play in the same space. I'm not at all saying that will happen, just that looking at this point requires a bigger, broader perspective.

sergiosgc 8y ago
> It's not enough to say you're dominant in a niche, albeit a growing one. When you're facing technology transitions, looking at it as a niche is exactly the wrong perspective. Tesla is dominant in a field which is the future of automotive transportation. It is a small market not because it is a niche but because it is nascent. The difference is, strategically, very relevant. ICE automakers are just realizing how far behind Tesla they are. I'd wager at least ten years. The model S was launched in 2012, VW et al won't be able to launch a similar offer before 2022.
- clouddrover 8y ago
  > VW et al won't be able to launch a similar offer before 2022. Volkswagen will launch multiple models across multiple brands before 2022. The Porsche Taycan is launching before 2022: https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/09/porche-taycan-ev-20-000-reservations/ https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/09/porche-taycan-ev-20-000-... https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a21239621/porsche-taycan-mission-e-electric/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a21239... And the VW ID Neo: https://electrek.co/2019/03/13/vw-id-electric-hatchback-pre-orders-open-may-8-production-september/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/13/vw-id-electric-hatchback-pre-... And the VW ID Crozz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8zbuvzEA5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8zbuvzEA5A And the Audi e-tron Q4: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/audi-q4-e-tron-concept-geneva-motor-show/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/audi-q4-e-tron-concept-ge... And the Audi e-tron GT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsXhl3ilU9I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsXhl3ilU9I And the Skoda Vision IV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O72uf9DNakk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O72uf9DNakk And the SEAT el-Born: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umwlXFoSAD8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umwlXFoSAD8

dforrestwilson 8y ago

>Tesla cars have among the worst reliability of any car brand And yet, Tesla owners keep recommending their cars more than anyone else, because the car is that good. Do you have a source for this?

rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
>Owners appear to like, even love, the Model 3. It received top marks in CR’s recent owner satisfaction survey and also earned a positive road-test score. It’s a weird duality — and one the even CR acknowledges — that other aspirational, lifestyle and luxury vehicles share. Owners love the vehicles, despite persistent issues with the components inside them. https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/21/tesla-model-3-loses-consumer-reports-recommendation-over-reliability-problems/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/21/tesla-model-3-loses-consum...

cc439 8y ago

>Because Tesla manufactures all its car in California, which has far stricter rules than other states. If other manufacturers moved their production there, Tesla would rank better than the competition I just want to point out that Tesla's California plant is Just the old GM/Toyota NUMMI plant. The article insinuates the safety violations are greater than any US based plant operated by other manufacturers over the past 10 years, a time period which includes the era in which GM/Toyota ran the very same plant.

labcomputer 8y ago
NUMMI was sold to Tesla in 2010, and Toyota/GM had basically stopped operations by mid 2009. I’m not sure how one year of super low production is comparable to Tesla’s operation.

mikestew 8y ago

>Tesla cars have among the worst reliability of any car brand And yet, Tesla owners keep recommending their cars more than anyone else, because the car is that good. You know what that exchange reminds me of? Harley-Davidson motorcycles, back in the AMF days. Those bikes were known for being unreliable pieces of crap that would shake their own bolts loose. Wear comfortable boots if you own one. And yet their owners wouldn't be caught dead riding anything else. I argue that when you spend nearly $100 on a car (or big bucks on a bike), what else are you going to say? "I'm an idiot and shouldn't be trusted with large sums of money."?