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I love how brazen this letter is. > Apple’s approach has always been to grow the pie. Apple's approach has always been to grow it's own pie. They have never b

by revel 8y ago

I love how brazen this letter is. > Apple’s approach has always been to grow the pie. Apple's approach has always been to grow it's own pie. They have never been even remotely interested in playing nicely with other companies. I don't fault them for it, but let's not kid ourselves here; the app store is largely an extremely profitable exercise in rent seeking. It's not like this is new for Apple; they've had proprietary cables and adapters for as long as I can remember. Developing software for their hardware has always meant using Xcode, which, surprise, is not free. Literally every other platform has given away tooling and emulators, but that's never been true for Apple. Occasionally this kind of behavior works out well for customers -- they were unafraid to use their market power as a cudgel to kill off Flash (which I think we can all agree needed to happen) -- but all too frequently it's purely anti-competitive. Apple has created some incredible products and services over the years, but let's not kid ourselves about this; this is simply a way of extracting value from Spotify.

cnorthwood 8y ago
Xcode is now free: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/xcode/id497799835?mt=12 https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/xcode/id497799835?mt=12 (although you still have to have a mac)
- mattl 8y ago
  Still proprietary though, right? With underlying free libraries and compilers?
  - cnorthwood 8y ago
    Yes, it's gratis, not libre. I understood the parent comment to be referring to the price.
    - mattl 8y ago
      I understood it the other way. Proprietary cables to free tools. ️
      - simonh 8y ago
        The components that are specific to the Mac, such as the GUI builder, are closed source. All the underlying tooling and technologies such as the LLVM compiler stack, Clang, etc are published by Apple as open source and widely used on other platforms.
- tempodox 8y ago
  If you want to publish your stuff in the AppStore, or just install it on your own iDevice, you have to pay a yearly subscription fee.
  - boboguitar 8y ago
    What does that have to do with the price of Xcode?
  - voqv 8y ago
    > install it on your own iDevice, you have to pay a yearly subscription fee. Not true anymore [1] [1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/43932076/how-to-build-app-on-iphone-physical-device-without-developer-account https://stackoverflow.com/questions/43932076/how-to-build-ap...
    - emsy 8y ago
      Not only do you still have to hassle with Apple's clunky provisioning profiles, it only lasts for a week and you're almost guaranteed to get an error message because you reached the device limit with as much as one device.
      - Aaargh20318 8y ago
        > Not only do you still have to hassle with Apple's clunky provisioning profiles No you don't. XCode takes care of all of that automatically, I haven't had to hassle with provisioning profiles in years.
        consp 8y ago
        You provide anecdotal evidence (like me) as it requires me to set it manually to work and it has been so for about a year.
        Aaargh20318 8y ago
        What do you need to 'set manually' ? You check 'automatically manage signing' and select your team from the list (if you're in multiple teams) and it should Just Work™.
- oauea 8y ago
  It's ridiculous apple still forces anyone who wants to publish to its platform to have a mac. Had to jump through ridiculous hoops to get automated builds for an iOS app working since our build farm is all Linux (of course).
madeofpalk 8y ago
> they've had proprietary cables and adapters for as long as I can remember. Apart from Lightning, which was created when no better alternative existed, I cannot remember a proprietary Apple connector in at least the past 10 years.
- franga2000 8y ago
  That wide flat thing that looked kinda similar to Samsung's tablet connector? I'm not sure if it was in the last 10y tho...
  - finaliteration 8y ago
    You’re thinking of the Dock Connector, which was last used on the iPhone 4s back in 2011.
    - madeofpalk 8y ago
      And first used in 2003.
- jklinger410 8y ago
  >Apart from Lightning, which was created when no better alternative existed They could have easily went with USB-C.
  - madeofpalk 8y ago
    USB-C spec was finalised two years after Lighting shipped.
    - jklinger410 8y ago
      And lightning works with USB-C. The narrative here is supposed to be that we're all certain Apple was working really hard to try and make a universal adapter to their device and just couldn't because it wasn't far enough along?
- 8y ago
dasloop 8y ago
MS tools are not free for commercial as any certification required to sign (was discussed in HN as few weeks ago) apps and installers. 99$/year for that is a better porposal than the one in MS.
simonh 8y ago
There’s a thread of truth in what you’re saying, but it unravels on close inspection. Proprietary cables are hardly new, and to be fair those cables and connectors are usually way better than the standard stuff. Firewire and thunderbolt were actually released as open standards and saw decent adoption. Lightning is far superior to Micro-USB. Just listen to the wailing and gnashing of teeth by Macbook owners having to give up proprietary MagSafe for USB-C charging on their laptops. XCode is free and has been for ages. To this day you can develop whatever you like for the Mac and not pay Apple a penny. You don’t even have to use XCode to do it. It’s even free for iPhone development for your own device now, though you have to pay a fee to publish stuff. I’m not sure what you comment about emulators is about to be honest, The iOS emulator for the Mac is free. Yes they want their cut from Spotify. I don’t understand the Apple exceptionalism about this though. Nobody rages on HN about Sony’s monopoly over games development for the PlayStation, or Microsoft for XBOX, or Nintendo for the Switch, but for some reason Apple which came to this business model two generations late is the root of all evil. It really is kind of weird how that works. Maybe if their iconic image was a cute little plumber instead of a half eaten fruit, everyone would say 'Aww how cute' and give them a pass.
- therockhead 8y ago
  Historically the console manufacturers sold their consoles at a loss and only made profit on games sales. This might have influenced our perspective on the sales model.
  - simonh 8y ago
    Not always. Nintendo was making a profit in each Wii sold, as a unit, from day one.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- robert_foss 8y ago
  XCode may cost you 0$, but you have to buy a Mac to use it. And those things are >0$ in most cases.
asow92 8y ago
Apple has some really nice developer tools and they provide my business a lot of value. I'd gladly pay more for them if I had to.
ppeetteerr 8y ago
> Literally every other platform has given away tooling and emulators That's so wrong. Try building a game for any console and see how far that assumption will take you.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  Since when is a gaming console a personal computer (in any meaningful sense)?
  - ppeetteerr 8y ago
    The argument is around platforms, not PCs. If you're referring to the only other meaningful consumer OS, then you don't appreciate the vastness of the platform market.

by revel 8y ago

cnorthwood 8y ago

Xcode is now free: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/xcode/id497799835?mt=12 https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/xcode/id497799835?mt=12 (although you still have to have a mac)

mattl 8y ago
Still proprietary though, right? With underlying free libraries and compilers?
- cnorthwood 8y ago
  Yes, it's gratis, not libre. I understood the parent comment to be referring to the price.
  - mattl 8y ago
    I understood it the other way. Proprietary cables to free tools. ️
    - simonh 8y ago
      The components that are specific to the Mac, such as the GUI builder, are closed source. All the underlying tooling and technologies such as the LLVM compiler stack, Clang, etc are published by Apple as open source and widely used on other platforms.
tempodox 8y ago
If you want to publish your stuff in the AppStore, or just install it on your own iDevice, you have to pay a yearly subscription fee.
- boboguitar 8y ago
  What does that have to do with the price of Xcode?
- voqv 8y ago
  > install it on your own iDevice, you have to pay a yearly subscription fee. Not true anymore [1] [1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/43932076/how-to-build-app-on-iphone-physical-device-without-developer-account https://stackoverflow.com/questions/43932076/how-to-build-ap...
  - emsy 8y ago
    Not only do you still have to hassle with Apple's clunky provisioning profiles, it only lasts for a week and you're almost guaranteed to get an error message because you reached the device limit with as much as one device.
    - Aaargh20318 8y ago
      > Not only do you still have to hassle with Apple's clunky provisioning profiles No you don't. XCode takes care of all of that automatically, I haven't had to hassle with provisioning profiles in years.
      - consp 8y ago
        You provide anecdotal evidence (like me) as it requires me to set it manually to work and it has been so for about a year.
        Aaargh20318 8y ago
        What do you need to 'set manually' ? You check 'automatically manage signing' and select your team from the list (if you're in multiple teams) and it should Just Work™.
oauea 8y ago
It's ridiculous apple still forces anyone who wants to publish to its platform to have a mac. Had to jump through ridiculous hoops to get automated builds for an iOS app working since our build farm is all Linux (of course).

madeofpalk 8y ago

> they've had proprietary cables and adapters for as long as I can remember. Apart from Lightning, which was created when no better alternative existed, I cannot remember a proprietary Apple connector in at least the past 10 years.

franga2000 8y ago
That wide flat thing that looked kinda similar to Samsung's tablet connector? I'm not sure if it was in the last 10y tho...
- finaliteration 8y ago
  You’re thinking of the Dock Connector, which was last used on the iPhone 4s back in 2011.
  - madeofpalk 8y ago
    And first used in 2003.
jklinger410 8y ago
>Apart from Lightning, which was created when no better alternative existed They could have easily went with USB-C.
- madeofpalk 8y ago
  USB-C spec was finalised two years after Lighting shipped.
  - jklinger410 8y ago
    And lightning works with USB-C. The narrative here is supposed to be that we're all certain Apple was working really hard to try and make a universal adapter to their device and just couldn't because it wasn't far enough along?
8y ago

dasloop 8y ago

MS tools are not free for commercial as any certification required to sign (was discussed in HN as few weeks ago) apps and installers. 99$/year for that is a better porposal than the one in MS.

simonh 8y ago

There’s a thread of truth in what you’re saying, but it unravels on close inspection. Proprietary cables are hardly new, and to be fair those cables and connectors are usually way better than the standard stuff. Firewire and thunderbolt were actually released as open standards and saw decent adoption. Lightning is far superior to Micro-USB. Just listen to the wailing and gnashing of teeth by Macbook owners having to give up proprietary MagSafe for USB-C charging on their laptops. XCode is free and has been for ages. To this day you can develop whatever you like for the Mac and not pay Apple a penny. You don’t even have to use XCode to do it. It’s even free for iPhone development for your own device now, though you have to pay a fee to publish stuff. I’m not sure what you comment about emulators is about to be honest, The iOS emulator for the Mac is free. Yes they want their cut from Spotify. I don’t understand the Apple exceptionalism about this though. Nobody rages on HN about Sony’s monopoly over games development for the PlayStation, or Microsoft for XBOX, or Nintendo for the Switch, but for some reason Apple which came to this business model two generations late is the root of all evil. It really is kind of weird how that works. Maybe if their iconic image was a cute little plumber instead of a half eaten fruit, everyone would say 'Aww how cute' and give them a pass.

therockhead 8y ago
Historically the console manufacturers sold their consoles at a loss and only made profit on games sales. This might have influenced our perspective on the sales model.
- simonh 8y ago
  Not always. Nintendo was making a profit in each Wii sold, as a unit, from day one.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
robert_foss 8y ago
XCode may cost you 0$, but you have to buy a Mac to use it. And those things are >0$ in most cases.

asow92 8y ago

Apple has some really nice developer tools and they provide my business a lot of value. I'd gladly pay more for them if I had to.

ppeetteerr 8y ago

> Literally every other platform has given away tooling and emulators That's so wrong. Try building a game for any console and see how far that assumption will take you.

FireBeyond 8y ago
Since when is a gaming console a personal computer (in any meaningful sense)?
- ppeetteerr 8y ago
  The argument is around platforms, not PCs. If you're referring to the only other meaningful consumer OS, then you don't appreciate the vastness of the platform market.