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To clarify, I meant passengers. Copilots and engineers are fine and likely even necessary to properly train and deal with the new challenges. As a daily driver

To clarify, I meant passengers. Copilots and engineers are fine and likely even necessary to properly train and deal with the new challenges. As a daily driver of your own car, if you do own one, then it might be apparent how different they can be. I constantly switch between automatic Mercedes and BMWs. Both have a near identical handle on the right side of the steering wheel. One turns on wipers (BMW), the other one shifts gears... (Benz). Imagine that on a plane with worse consequences than accidentally shifting into neutral when it rains.

CydeWeys 8y ago
You don't do non-revenue training flights on full-size jetliners. It's way too expensive. You learn to fly (period) on small planes that can't hold passengers at all, then you train in simulators for a specific model, and then finally you're paired up with a more experienced pilot once you start flying it for real. They definitely did not do the proper training that was merited here, but the proper training is not and never was flying a large jetliner empty.
- neuronic 8y ago
  That makes a lot of sense, but shouldn't simulators be updated/upgraded for significantly different models? One would expect that X hours in a simulator help you adapt to a new aircraft type. I didn't intend to demand economically stupid things like flying an large aircraft empty for training, just wanted to express that as a passenger I want my pilot to know their way around the machine that keeps me 10km above ground at 600km/h.
  - gsnedders 8y ago
    > That makes a lot of sense, but shouldn't simulators be updated/upgraded for significantly different models? According to Boeing, the FAA, the EASA, and various other regulators around the world, the 737 MAX is not significantly different to earlier 737s.
  - olivil 8y ago
    I work in the simulation industry, and once a simulator is certified for training, you cant "update it" to another model. The customer has to buy a new 737 MAX sim. However, since the 737ng and 737 MAX are common type (meaning that in the eyes of the authorities, if you're licensed for one, you're licensed for both) customers aren't REQUIRED to get a 737 MAX sim granted that they already have a 737ng sim. Just to clarify: you can udpate a simulator and recertifie it. e.g. in regard to the motion or visual systems etc etc. But to transform a simulator into another aircraft would be beyond economically sane.
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  Funny enough, I remember seeing a 737 doing circuits at Prestwick airport. I believe there is (or used to be) some requirement for an airline to do a minimum number of circuits on a new type. Kinda fun to see. Apparently a lot of fun for pilots to do.
  - CydeWeys 8y ago
    Yeah, each time a new type comes out, or a new plane is manufactured, you do empty test flights. But you don't do that just to train up a pilot.

CydeWeys 8y ago

You don't do non-revenue training flights on full-size jetliners. It's way too expensive. You learn to fly (period) on small planes that can't hold passengers at all, then you train in simulators for a specific model, and then finally you're paired up with a more experienced pilot once you start flying it for real. They definitely did not do the proper training that was merited here, but the proper training is not and never was flying a large jetliner empty.

neuronic 8y ago
That makes a lot of sense, but shouldn't simulators be updated/upgraded for significantly different models? One would expect that X hours in a simulator help you adapt to a new aircraft type. I didn't intend to demand economically stupid things like flying an large aircraft empty for training, just wanted to express that as a passenger I want my pilot to know their way around the machine that keeps me 10km above ground at 600km/h.
- gsnedders 8y ago
  > That makes a lot of sense, but shouldn't simulators be updated/upgraded for significantly different models? According to Boeing, the FAA, the EASA, and various other regulators around the world, the 737 MAX is not significantly different to earlier 737s.
- olivil 8y ago
  I work in the simulation industry, and once a simulator is certified for training, you cant "update it" to another model. The customer has to buy a new 737 MAX sim. However, since the 737ng and 737 MAX are common type (meaning that in the eyes of the authorities, if you're licensed for one, you're licensed for both) customers aren't REQUIRED to get a 737 MAX sim granted that they already have a 737ng sim. Just to clarify: you can udpate a simulator and recertifie it. e.g. in regard to the motion or visual systems etc etc. But to transform a simulator into another aircraft would be beyond economically sane.
VBprogrammer 8y ago
Funny enough, I remember seeing a 737 doing circuits at Prestwick airport. I believe there is (or used to be) some requirement for an airline to do a minimum number of circuits on a new type. Kinda fun to see. Apparently a lot of fun for pilots to do.
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  Yeah, each time a new type comes out, or a new plane is manufactured, you do empty test flights. But you don't do that just to train up a pilot.