7 ms·

I don't get this thinking. I think everyone is making the comparison to Silicon Valley, which is ridiculously expensive because their are too many people making

I don't get this thinking. I think everyone is making the comparison to Silicon Valley, which is ridiculously expensive because their are too many people making too much money that all want to be in the same place. In most of the USA, not only do you make more than you would in France, but things are actually cheaper, not more expensive. Imagine you make $150,000/year, a really nice house cost $300,000 (think $2,000 monthly mortgage/taxes/insurance payment), groceries, electricity, internet, car for a small family is $2,000 month. And that is with a very high quality of life. If you want to live frugally cut all the expenses in half. The company provides health insurance. I think the biggest difference might be that Americans report their salary before taxes, and I think Europeans tend to do it after taxes. $150,000/year with a small family is probably $110,000-$120,000 after taxes in most states. €90k after taxes is comparable. Just need to consider quality of life differences.

biztos 8y ago
> too many people making too much money The people making "too much money" are doing the indispensable work that generates the profit (or chance-at-profit) for their employers, and the employers are by definition OK with paying them that share, which even in very profitable industries is highly unlikely to be as big a share as "management" gets. If people in France get a much smaller cut (I assume they do, people in Germany certainly do) then wouldn't that mean they're getting too little? (I think this was close to the other half of your point actually.)
- aristophenes 8y ago
  I should clarify, I don't think there is anything wrong with being paid a lot to do valuable work. I didn't mean it that way when I wrote it, I'm not used to this concept that people that make a lot of money are doing something wrong. Seems like they are doing something that people value a lot.
kbwt 8y ago
I haven't heard of anyone in Europe reporting their salary after-tax.
- Kurtz79 8y ago
  Monthly salary is usually discussed after-tax (since you usually compare it with monthly expenses like rent/mortgage, utilities, etc), annual before.
marvin 8y ago
European salaries are in my experience usually reported pre-tax, which makes the situation even worse :P Half the pay of our American counterparts, double the taxes and most non-real-estate goods are more expensive.
- Dunan 8y ago
  Hello from Japan as well. And we have American-style vacation allotments!
distances 8y ago
> I think the biggest difference might be that Americans report their salary before taxes, and I think Europeans tend to do it after taxes. $150,000/year with a small family is probably $110,000-$120,000 after taxes in most states. €90k after taxes is comparable. Europeans also report before taxes, and that 90k€ is definitely before taxes. I don't know about this person's taxation, but it's probably around 50k€ after taxes. That's still a very good salary in Europe though.
- hk__2 8y ago
  I took the 90k figure from [1]. I don’t know about the average european country, but in France annual salaries are reported before taxes. You can remove ~25% off that to get the after-taxes amount.
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throwaway011010 8y ago
I hardly ever comment on HN (I usually lurk) but I felt compelled to due to the sheer amount of false claims in this comment. First off, can we define "things" in your sentence "things are actually cheaper, not more expensive"? What are the "things" you're talking about? Education? Eh... not really expensive in the US, is it? the US student loan debt is swelling at about $1.5 trillion... and counting. It speaks volume as to how costly education is in the US. [1] Healthcare? Hugely expensive for a country as "rich" as the US. Unless, of course, you work for a generous employer and in that case, everything is paid for. Wait a second, I'm told not all employers provide a healthcare plan along with a 401k plan? That's unfortunate. Let's also remind ourselves that the US doesn't provide universal healthcare for all its citizens unlike other advanced industrialized countries. So if you happen to be jobless? You're SOL. Awe-effing-some. Let's move on... [2] Housing? In SF/SV/NYC/Seattle/Washington/any major US city, housing is extremely expensive as is housing in any major European metropolis such as London/Paris/Munich/Zurich. I bet the $300,000 nice house you mention in your comment must be somewhere in the countryside where nobody lives, right? Let's make this clear: houses located in the middle of nowhere in any European country also cost zilch. Let's take France for instance: 30K euros gets you a 100 sqm house (even bigger sometimes) in the Creuse region. Yeah nobody wants to live there but hey at least I can own a large house for the price of a car. [3] I could go on and on. I haven't even touched on other topics such as Internet, groceries, rent or insurance. Your comment comes across as plain ignorant and downward complacent. I don't get this tendency of always sugarcoating the US, as though it would make it magically more appealing to the average Joe to move there. Please back up your claims next time with articles or sources. Just use your favourite search engine. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_debt#/media/File:Student_loan_debt.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_debt#/media/File:Stude... [2]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2674671 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/26746... [3]: https://www.seloger.com/list.htm?enterprise=0&natures=1,2,4&places=%5b%7bcp%3a23%7d%5d&projects=2,5&qsversion=1.0&sort=a_px&types=2&LISTING-LISTpg=2 https://www.seloger.com/list.htm?enterprise=0&natures=1,2,4&...
- aristophenes 8y ago
  I just live and work in the USA my whole life, if anything I'm wrong about France. I'm not going to bother to refute most of your claims, as the premise is what are the salaries of tech people, not what are the standards of living of jobless people in San Francisco. Most of the US population, including myself and most of my acquaintances, live outside of those major cities, and that was the point I was making. You listed off literally the most expensive places to live in the USA, where the majority of people do not live. Education expenses are whatever you want to pay, we have plenty of choices including cheap choices, and generous scholarships for those that can't afford it but are smart.

biztos 8y ago

> too many people making too much money The people making "too much money" are doing the indispensable work that generates the profit (or chance-at-profit) for their employers, and the employers are by definition OK with paying them that share, which even in very profitable industries is highly unlikely to be as big a share as "management" gets. If people in France get a much smaller cut (I assume they do, people in Germany certainly do) then wouldn't that mean they're getting too little? (I think this was close to the other half of your point actually.)

aristophenes 8y ago
I should clarify, I don't think there is anything wrong with being paid a lot to do valuable work. I didn't mean it that way when I wrote it, I'm not used to this concept that people that make a lot of money are doing something wrong. Seems like they are doing something that people value a lot.

kbwt 8y ago

I haven't heard of anyone in Europe reporting their salary after-tax.

Kurtz79 8y ago
Monthly salary is usually discussed after-tax (since you usually compare it with monthly expenses like rent/mortgage, utilities, etc), annual before.

marvin 8y ago

European salaries are in my experience usually reported pre-tax, which makes the situation even worse :P Half the pay of our American counterparts, double the taxes and most non-real-estate goods are more expensive.

Dunan 8y ago
Hello from Japan as well. And we have American-style vacation allotments!

distances 8y ago

> I think the biggest difference might be that Americans report their salary before taxes, and I think Europeans tend to do it after taxes. $150,000/year with a small family is probably $110,000-$120,000 after taxes in most states. €90k after taxes is comparable. Europeans also report before taxes, and that 90k€ is definitely before taxes. I don't know about this person's taxation, but it's probably around 50k€ after taxes. That's still a very good salary in Europe though.

hk__2 8y ago
I took the 90k figure from [1]. I don’t know about the average european country, but in France annual salaries are reported before taxes. You can remove ~25% off that to get the after-taxes amount.

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throwaway011010 8y ago

I hardly ever comment on HN (I usually lurk) but I felt compelled to due to the sheer amount of false claims in this comment. First off, can we define "things" in your sentence "things are actually cheaper, not more expensive"? What are the "things" you're talking about? Education? Eh... not really expensive in the US, is it? the US student loan debt is swelling at about $1.5 trillion... and counting. It speaks volume as to how costly education is in the US. [1] Healthcare? Hugely expensive for a country as "rich" as the US. Unless, of course, you work for a generous employer and in that case, everything is paid for. Wait a second, I'm told not all employers provide a healthcare plan along with a 401k plan? That's unfortunate. Let's also remind ourselves that the US doesn't provide universal healthcare for all its citizens unlike other advanced industrialized countries. So if you happen to be jobless? You're SOL. Awe-effing-some. Let's move on... [2] Housing? In SF/SV/NYC/Seattle/Washington/any major US city, housing is extremely expensive as is housing in any major European metropolis such as London/Paris/Munich/Zurich. I bet the $300,000 nice house you mention in your comment must be somewhere in the countryside where nobody lives, right? Let's make this clear: houses located in the middle of nowhere in any European country also cost zilch. Let's take France for instance: 30K euros gets you a 100 sqm house (even bigger sometimes) in the Creuse region. Yeah nobody wants to live there but hey at least I can own a large house for the price of a car. [3] I could go on and on. I haven't even touched on other topics such as Internet, groceries, rent or insurance. Your comment comes across as plain ignorant and downward complacent. I don't get this tendency of always sugarcoating the US, as though it would make it magically more appealing to the average Joe to move there. Please back up your claims next time with articles or sources. Just use your favourite search engine. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_debt#/media/File:Student_loan_debt.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_debt#/media/File:Stude... [2]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2674671 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/26746... [3]: https://www.seloger.com/list.htm?enterprise=0&natures=1,2,4&places=%5b%7bcp%3a23%7d%5d&projects=2,5&qsversion=1.0&sort=a_px&types=2&LISTING-LISTpg=2 https://www.seloger.com/list.htm?enterprise=0&natures=1,2,4&...

aristophenes 8y ago
I just live and work in the USA my whole life, if anything I'm wrong about France. I'm not going to bother to refute most of your claims, as the premise is what are the salaries of tech people, not what are the standards of living of jobless people in San Francisco. Most of the US population, including myself and most of my acquaintances, live outside of those major cities, and that was the point I was making. You listed off literally the most expensive places to live in the USA, where the majority of people do not live. Education expenses are whatever you want to pay, we have plenty of choices including cheap choices, and generous scholarships for those that can't afford it but are smart.