6 ms·

Shaming people who work for tobacco companies is childish and myopic.

by matchbok 8y ago

GuiA 8y ago
Is perpetuating an international public health crisis for short term financial gain any less myopic or childish?
- matchbok 8y ago
  People like smoking. People like drinking. Humans will be humans.
  - adjkant 8y ago
    Some people like shooting themselves with guns sometimes. It doesn't mean I should manufacture guns and advertise their effectiveness for that task, or worse, use psychological tricks to sell guns to these people while hiding my motivations.
    - matchbok 8y ago
      Dear lord, they are cigarettes. Everyone understands the risks. Guns are legal, so people will manufacture them and people will buy them. What people "should" do is not murder.
      - adjkant 8y ago
        First, let us not forget it took an entire public health initiative and excessive public regulation for "everyone" to understand the risks. This is not always the case generally and was certainly not when Marbolo employees, some high up with power and freedom of work, were working to lobby against that information regarding their risks coming to light. As far as guns, again you did not read my full example regarding the marketing. The conditions are to show that making something and selling something happens in a context, not a vacuum. Not all cases are moral or should be encouraged.
adjkant 8y ago
Why? If they have alternate employment options, they are actively choosing to support their company's work. The "someone else will do it" excuse doesn't mean you throw your hands up in the air and give up on ever caring about ethics, it means you acknowledge that it won't change the world on its own and still try. I don't think you go attacking individuals publicly but yes, people should absolutely be forced to have conversations about the morality of their job, especially those well off enough to have freedom of choice in where they work. It's not an easy conversation, but we all need to be encouraging this more.
- matchbok 8y ago
  Ah, "morality" about one's job. The luxury of hacker news commenters. Very, very, very few people have that luxury. Everyone else has mouths to feed and a roof to replace. Everyone is aware of the risks of smoking. People still want to do it. So people can, and should, produce cigarettes. If you don't like it, don't buy them. But to suggest minimum wage earners working at Marlboro should quit because of some vague "morality" is insane and extremely elitist.
  - adjkant 8y ago
    I specifically included, very deliberately, phrasing specifying that this applies only to those that have alternatives. The reality is that many of those working at Facebook have such a luxury. I absolutely do not blame people that are working to survive. > But to suggest minimum wage earners working at Marlboro should quit because of some vague "morality" is insane and extremely elitist. Not once did I say this anywhere. There are still high ups at Marbolo that did have the ability though, and plenty of people between minimum wage survival and top level execs. It's a spectrum of both power and responsibility.
    - matchbok 8y ago
      Many work at FB have that luxury? How can you prove that? You can't. That's a judgement call on your part, and a bad one at that. You have absolutely no insight into the work/life issues those workers need to consider. Someone's salary is not a measure to use when attacking them for not resigning. There is no valid argument to support the claim that Marlboro executives should resign because cigarettes are unhealthy. People resigning does exactly nothing to the market demand for cigarettes.

Shaming people who work for tobacco companies is childish and myopic.

GuiA 8y ago

Is perpetuating an international public health crisis for short term financial gain any less myopic or childish?

matchbok 8y ago
People like smoking. People like drinking. Humans will be humans.
- adjkant 8y ago
  Some people like shooting themselves with guns sometimes. It doesn't mean I should manufacture guns and advertise their effectiveness for that task, or worse, use psychological tricks to sell guns to these people while hiding my motivations.
  - matchbok 8y ago
    Dear lord, they are cigarettes. Everyone understands the risks. Guns are legal, so people will manufacture them and people will buy them. What people "should" do is not murder.
    - adjkant 8y ago
      First, let us not forget it took an entire public health initiative and excessive public regulation for "everyone" to understand the risks. This is not always the case generally and was certainly not when Marbolo employees, some high up with power and freedom of work, were working to lobby against that information regarding their risks coming to light. As far as guns, again you did not read my full example regarding the marketing. The conditions are to show that making something and selling something happens in a context, not a vacuum. Not all cases are moral or should be encouraged.

adjkant 8y ago

Why? If they have alternate employment options, they are actively choosing to support their company's work. The "someone else will do it" excuse doesn't mean you throw your hands up in the air and give up on ever caring about ethics, it means you acknowledge that it won't change the world on its own and still try. I don't think you go attacking individuals publicly but yes, people should absolutely be forced to have conversations about the morality of their job, especially those well off enough to have freedom of choice in where they work. It's not an easy conversation, but we all need to be encouraging this more.

matchbok 8y ago
Ah, "morality" about one's job. The luxury of hacker news commenters. Very, very, very few people have that luxury. Everyone else has mouths to feed and a roof to replace. Everyone is aware of the risks of smoking. People still want to do it. So people can, and should, produce cigarettes. If you don't like it, don't buy them. But to suggest minimum wage earners working at Marlboro should quit because of some vague "morality" is insane and extremely elitist.
- adjkant 8y ago
  I specifically included, very deliberately, phrasing specifying that this applies only to those that have alternatives. The reality is that many of those working at Facebook have such a luxury. I absolutely do not blame people that are working to survive. > But to suggest minimum wage earners working at Marlboro should quit because of some vague "morality" is insane and extremely elitist. Not once did I say this anywhere. There are still high ups at Marbolo that did have the ability though, and plenty of people between minimum wage survival and top level execs. It's a spectrum of both power and responsibility.
  - matchbok 8y ago
    Many work at FB have that luxury? How can you prove that? You can't. That's a judgement call on your part, and a bad one at that. You have absolutely no insight into the work/life issues those workers need to consider. Someone's salary is not a measure to use when attacking them for not resigning. There is no valid argument to support the claim that Marlboro executives should resign because cigarettes are unhealthy. People resigning does exactly nothing to the market demand for cigarettes.