5 ms·

Imagine needing the complexity of docker, browsers, vs code when a much simpler (and compared to this which is running in http? - secure) tool already exists :)

by foxes 8y ago

Imagine needing the complexity of docker, browsers, vs code when a much simpler (and compared to this which is running in http? - secure) tool already exists :), ie ssh -X

haolez 8y ago
Or simply mount a dir with sshfs or similar :)
bitwize 8y ago
No. The X protocol is objectively shit. It's so shit, modern toolkits don't even fully use it anymore. Instead they do all rendering locally and pipe the composited pixmaps over to the X server via DRI. Over a network, guess what? No DRI. Meaning uncompressed pixmaps get sent over that network link every time a redraw happens. Wayland, Pipewire, and H.265 will be a much better general solution to remote desktop access. In the meantime, VSCode via browser is a MUCH better approach than trying to forward it over X over any but the fastest network links.
- kristianp 8y ago
  To clarify your statement about Wayland, it doesn't support remote desktop access in itself [1]. A remote desktop server would sit on top of Wayland. [1] https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_8 https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_8
asutekku 8y ago
I’d rather use the tooling of VSCode than ssh into some shoddy configuration of vim
- flukus 8y ago
  > I’d rather use the tooling of VSCode What they're suggesting allow you to do just that.
jpambrun 8y ago
I tried that in the past and it's unusable over typical internet latency.
manigandham 8y ago
That's just a different kind of complexity to transmit interactions and UI rendering. It's built for much more general usage which is why it fails at a fine-grained low-latency coding experience on anything other than a LAN.
morpheuskafka 8y ago
Yeah that doesn't really cut it for remoting over the internet into a VM in the cloud. As far as securing this it's as simple as tossing a few lines into your reverse proxy config.
jahewson 8y ago
Because there’s nothing simpler than X11, right!? Also there's no dependency on docker - that's just a demo.
netheril96 8y ago
X forwarding is not secure at all.
- movedx 8y ago
  Over an SSH tunnel?
- jhoechtl 8y ago
  And impossible using Wayland
simula67 8y ago
X forwarding is very slow. Some potential reasons are discussed here : https://superuser.com/questions/1217280/why-is-x11-forwarding-so-inefficient https://superuser.com/questions/1217280/why-is-x11-forwardin...
- josteink 8y ago
  I like X-forwarding in general, but VSCode and other electron-based apps really run like ass over remote X11. Definitely not recommended.
IronBacon 8y ago
No one remembers the "No Machine" NX protocol (X protocol with compression, without unnecessary roundtrips and some other optimizations)? I think I've tried it in the early 2000's, looks like they are still alive[0] With version 4 of their protocol they went closed source, but before that it was released as GPL (don't remember if it was the case of their client/server, IIRC they were proprietary) anyway I think V3 is used in the X2Go[1] client/server. There was also a Goggle client in Python years ago... [0] https://www.nomachine.com/ https://www.nomachine.com/ [1] https://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php/doc:newtox2go https://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php/doc:newtox2go
- ktpsns 8y ago
  I use x2go actively for all my servers. It is very fast, even over slow connections (much better performance then VNC and RDP used to have) -- thanks to great compression techniques (so do not expect 256 colours when connecting over GSM network). It is a lovely piece of (OSS!) software.
  - IronBacon 8y ago
    Nice to hear it's working well. I found out today that X2Go version 4.1 is available on Debian Stretch via "backports"; I don't need it at the moment but if I'm bored in the future, I could play with it without much friction...
  - kristianp 8y ago
    Can Nomachine/X2go run a server on a windows machine?
    - IronBacon 8y ago
      X2Go shouldn't work, unless you intend to run it on a VM or maybe the WSL as it's a modified Xorg X11 server, but probably it's not what you are asking. NoMachine, according to their download page, should support Windos/Mac/Linux on the server front, but I don't have a direct experience.
    - ktpsns 8y ago

by foxes 8y ago

Imagine needing the complexity of docker, browsers, vs code when a much simpler (and compared to this which is running in http? - secure) tool already exists :), ie ssh -X

haolez 8y ago

Or simply mount a dir with sshfs or similar :)

bitwize 8y ago

No. The X protocol is objectively shit. It's so shit, modern toolkits don't even fully use it anymore. Instead they do all rendering locally and pipe the composited pixmaps over to the X server via DRI. Over a network, guess what? No DRI. Meaning uncompressed pixmaps get sent over that network link every time a redraw happens. Wayland, Pipewire, and H.265 will be a much better general solution to remote desktop access. In the meantime, VSCode via browser is a MUCH better approach than trying to forward it over X over any but the fastest network links.

kristianp 8y ago
To clarify your statement about Wayland, it doesn't support remote desktop access in itself [1]. A remote desktop server would sit on top of Wayland. [1] https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_8 https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_8

asutekku 8y ago

I’d rather use the tooling of VSCode than ssh into some shoddy configuration of vim

flukus 8y ago
> I’d rather use the tooling of VSCode What they're suggesting allow you to do just that.

jpambrun 8y ago

I tried that in the past and it's unusable over typical internet latency.

manigandham 8y ago

That's just a different kind of complexity to transmit interactions and UI rendering. It's built for much more general usage which is why it fails at a fine-grained low-latency coding experience on anything other than a LAN.

morpheuskafka 8y ago

Yeah that doesn't really cut it for remoting over the internet into a VM in the cloud. As far as securing this it's as simple as tossing a few lines into your reverse proxy config.

jahewson 8y ago

Because there’s nothing simpler than X11, right!? Also there's no dependency on docker - that's just a demo.

netheril96 8y ago

X forwarding is not secure at all.

movedx 8y ago
Over an SSH tunnel?
jhoechtl 8y ago
And impossible using Wayland

simula67 8y ago

X forwarding is very slow. Some potential reasons are discussed here : https://superuser.com/questions/1217280/why-is-x11-forwarding-so-inefficient https://superuser.com/questions/1217280/why-is-x11-forwardin...

josteink 8y ago
I like X-forwarding in general, but VSCode and other electron-based apps really run like ass over remote X11. Definitely not recommended.

IronBacon 8y ago

No one remembers the "No Machine" NX protocol (X protocol with compression, without unnecessary roundtrips and some other optimizations)? I think I've tried it in the early 2000's, looks like they are still alive[0] With version 4 of their protocol they went closed source, but before that it was released as GPL (don't remember if it was the case of their client/server, IIRC they were proprietary) anyway I think V3 is used in the X2Go[1] client/server. There was also a Goggle client in Python years ago... [0] https://www.nomachine.com/ https://www.nomachine.com/ [1] https://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php/doc:newtox2go https://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php/doc:newtox2go

ktpsns 8y ago
I use x2go actively for all my servers. It is very fast, even over slow connections (much better performance then VNC and RDP used to have) -- thanks to great compression techniques (so do not expect 256 colours when connecting over GSM network). It is a lovely piece of (OSS!) software.
- IronBacon 8y ago
  Nice to hear it's working well. I found out today that X2Go version 4.1 is available on Debian Stretch via "backports"; I don't need it at the moment but if I'm bored in the future, I could play with it without much friction...
- kristianp 8y ago
  Can Nomachine/X2go run a server on a windows machine?
  - IronBacon 8y ago
    X2Go shouldn't work, unless you intend to run it on a VM or maybe the WSL as it's a modified Xorg X11 server, but probably it's not what you are asking. NoMachine, according to their download page, should support Windos/Mac/Linux on the server front, but I don't have a direct experience.
  - ktpsns 8y ago