8 ms·

As a developer based in Europe looking at these numbers is quite depressing.

by snrji 8y ago

hk__2 8y ago
Can we really compare them, though? I live in France, where €90k/y puts you in the top 1% salaries. In the US, you’d need to earn $400k/y to be in the same position. Standard of living and other social benefits come to mind.
- realthing 8y ago
  Not at all. After health insurance every cost is more or less a one-to-one Match. Being a developer in the US has and does pay better than EU, hands down.
- jimmy1 8y ago
  lol I'm sorry but no. 400k a year in US puts you in "I am a millionaire" status after like 5 years. 90k euros and big city purchasing power in France is most likely comparable to 180k in US. Remember, all these jobs we are talking about come with full benefits -- 401k with between 5-8% matching, stock options, healthcare, vision, dental, etc. And I am assuming you are talking about 90k euro after taxes not before because the French have one of the highest tax burdens in the world.
  - distances 8y ago
    This was discussed in the sibling thread, but that 90k€ is definitely before taxes. It's exceedingly rare to make that much after taxes, perhaps unless in senior management.
    - jimmy1 8y ago
      Wow, well then 90k Euro in France is no where close to 400k, much less 180k US.
      - distances 8y ago
        It's worth noting though that it's the US (and Canada to a degree) that is the exception here. It's great that software engineering can be such a boon for talented folks, but everywhere else even the highest SW salaries place people squarely in middle class, alongside teachers and doctors. It's still a nice life, just not one of abundant riches. Over 4k€ monthly after taxes goes quite far in Europe as you don't need to worry that much about saving for healthcare, pension, and your children's education later in life.
  - throwaway011010 8y ago
    > And I am assuming you are talking about 90k euro after taxes not before because the French have one of the highest tax burdens in the world. Source?
- aristophenes 8y ago
  I don't get this thinking. I think everyone is making the comparison to Silicon Valley, which is ridiculously expensive because their are too many people making too much money that all want to be in the same place. In most of the USA, not only do you make more than you would in France, but things are actually cheaper, not more expensive. Imagine you make $150,000/year, a really nice house cost $300,000 (think $2,000 monthly mortgage/taxes/insurance payment), groceries, electricity, internet, car for a small family is $2,000 month. And that is with a very high quality of life. If you want to live frugally cut all the expenses in half. The company provides health insurance. I think the biggest difference might be that Americans report their salary before taxes, and I think Europeans tend to do it after taxes. $150,000/year with a small family is probably $110,000-$120,000 after taxes in most states. €90k after taxes is comparable. Just need to consider quality of life differences.
  - biztos 8y ago
    > too many people making too much money The people making "too much money" are doing the indispensable work that generates the profit (or chance-at-profit) for their employers, and the employers are by definition OK with paying them that share, which even in very profitable industries is highly unlikely to be as big a share as "management" gets. If people in France get a much smaller cut (I assume they do, people in Germany certainly do) then wouldn't that mean they're getting too little? (I think this was close to the other half of your point actually.)
    - aristophenes 8y ago
      I should clarify, I don't think there is anything wrong with being paid a lot to do valuable work. I didn't mean it that way when I wrote it, I'm not used to this concept that people that make a lot of money are doing something wrong. Seems like they are doing something that people value a lot.
  - kbwt 8y ago
    I haven't heard of anyone in Europe reporting their salary after-tax.
- salarythrow5 8y ago
  90k euros is where, not Paris right? $120k feels very different in San Francisco vs Boise Idaho.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - hk__2 8y ago
    France in general. I took this number from here: https://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/1698781/ce-qu-il-faut-gagner-pour-etre-dans-les-1-de-francais-les-plus-riches-nathalie-cariou https://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/1698781/ce-qu-il-faut-ga... (in French)
jbarberu 8y ago
One trip home from the ER and you'll be the one laughing.
- mercutio2 8y ago
  Look, I agree the US system is inefficient, immoral in the aggregate, and generally a bit of a pain to interact with. But this idea that highly paid professionals in the US have crappy healthcare experiences is just silly. Anyone earning $100k as an employee in the US will have a good health plan that will provide excellent quality of care for a reasonable out of pocket cost. In fact, this is kind of the problem with the US system! Rich people have a healthcare system that works well for them, they get lots of choice, very fast access to specialists if they want them, and generally rich people are happy with their health care. This means there's no electoral coalition strong enough to pursue more egalitarian or more efficient systems, they'd all run the risk of appearing worse to the rich people.
  - aristophenes 8y ago
    TLDR: these kind of salaries also come with really good health insurance that your company pays for. A trip to the ER might cost your health insurer $50,000, it costs you a $1,000 deductible, and almost nothing for any follow up visits.
  - jbarberu 8y ago
    I'll concede that one trip to the ER was a bit hyperbole. That fact is though, that medical emergencies have a way to royally screw you over in a way that is unheard of in most European countries. Personally, with a background in a European country, a personal bankruptcy is something that only happens to the most financially careless/gambling addicted of people. In the US it seems to have become a sad part of a lot of peoples' coping strategy if a medical emergency arises. Got cancer? No retirement for you I guess.
LockNess0 8y ago
You are paying for a huge welfare system that minimally benefits you. Without taxes, particularly payroll taxes, salaries would be similar in Western Europe to the US.

As a developer based in Europe looking at these numbers is quite depressing.

by snrji 8y ago

As a developer based in Europe looking at these numbers is quite depressing.

Can we really compare them, though? I live in France, where €90k/y puts you in the top 1% salaries. In the US, you’d need to earn $400k/y to be in the same position. Standard of living and other social benefits come to mind.

realthing 8y ago
Not at all. After health insurance every cost is more or less a one-to-one Match. Being a developer in the US has and does pay better than EU, hands down.
jimmy1 8y ago
lol I'm sorry but no. 400k a year in US puts you in "I am a millionaire" status after like 5 years. 90k euros and big city purchasing power in France is most likely comparable to 180k in US. Remember, all these jobs we are talking about come with full benefits -- 401k with between 5-8% matching, stock options, healthcare, vision, dental, etc. And I am assuming you are talking about 90k euro after taxes not before because the French have one of the highest tax burdens in the world.
- distances 8y ago
  This was discussed in the sibling thread, but that 90k€ is definitely before taxes. It's exceedingly rare to make that much after taxes, perhaps unless in senior management.
  - jimmy1 8y ago
    Wow, well then 90k Euro in France is no where close to 400k, much less 180k US.
    - distances 8y ago
      It's worth noting though that it's the US (and Canada to a degree) that is the exception here. It's great that software engineering can be such a boon for talented folks, but everywhere else even the highest SW salaries place people squarely in middle class, alongside teachers and doctors. It's still a nice life, just not one of abundant riches. Over 4k€ monthly after taxes goes quite far in Europe as you don't need to worry that much about saving for healthcare, pension, and your children's education later in life.
- throwaway011010 8y ago
  > And I am assuming you are talking about 90k euro after taxes not before because the French have one of the highest tax burdens in the world. Source?
aristophenes 8y ago
I don't get this thinking. I think everyone is making the comparison to Silicon Valley, which is ridiculously expensive because their are too many people making too much money that all want to be in the same place. In most of the USA, not only do you make more than you would in France, but things are actually cheaper, not more expensive. Imagine you make $150,000/year, a really nice house cost $300,000 (think $2,000 monthly mortgage/taxes/insurance payment), groceries, electricity, internet, car for a small family is $2,000 month. And that is with a very high quality of life. If you want to live frugally cut all the expenses in half. The company provides health insurance. I think the biggest difference might be that Americans report their salary before taxes, and I think Europeans tend to do it after taxes. $150,000/year with a small family is probably $110,000-$120,000 after taxes in most states. €90k after taxes is comparable. Just need to consider quality of life differences.
- biztos 8y ago
  > too many people making too much money The people making "too much money" are doing the indispensable work that generates the profit (or chance-at-profit) for their employers, and the employers are by definition OK with paying them that share, which even in very profitable industries is highly unlikely to be as big a share as "management" gets. If people in France get a much smaller cut (I assume they do, people in Germany certainly do) then wouldn't that mean they're getting too little? (I think this was close to the other half of your point actually.)
  - aristophenes 8y ago
    I should clarify, I don't think there is anything wrong with being paid a lot to do valuable work. I didn't mean it that way when I wrote it, I'm not used to this concept that people that make a lot of money are doing something wrong. Seems like they are doing something that people value a lot.
- kbwt 8y ago
  I haven't heard of anyone in Europe reporting their salary after-tax.
salarythrow5 8y ago
90k euros is where, not Paris right? $120k feels very different in San Francisco vs Boise Idaho.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- hk__2 8y ago
  France in general. I took this number from here: https://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/1698781/ce-qu-il-faut-gagner-pour-etre-dans-les-1-de-francais-les-plus-riches-nathalie-cariou https://www.atlantico.fr/decryptage/1698781/ce-qu-il-faut-ga... (in French)

jbarberu 8y ago

One trip home from the ER and you'll be the one laughing.

mercutio2 8y ago
Look, I agree the US system is inefficient, immoral in the aggregate, and generally a bit of a pain to interact with. But this idea that highly paid professionals in the US have crappy healthcare experiences is just silly. Anyone earning $100k as an employee in the US will have a good health plan that will provide excellent quality of care for a reasonable out of pocket cost. In fact, this is kind of the problem with the US system! Rich people have a healthcare system that works well for them, they get lots of choice, very fast access to specialists if they want them, and generally rich people are happy with their health care. This means there's no electoral coalition strong enough to pursue more egalitarian or more efficient systems, they'd all run the risk of appearing worse to the rich people.
- aristophenes 8y ago
  TLDR: these kind of salaries also come with really good health insurance that your company pays for. A trip to the ER might cost your health insurer $50,000, it costs you a $1,000 deductible, and almost nothing for any follow up visits.
- jbarberu 8y ago
  I'll concede that one trip to the ER was a bit hyperbole. That fact is though, that medical emergencies have a way to royally screw you over in a way that is unheard of in most European countries. Personally, with a background in a European country, a personal bankruptcy is something that only happens to the most financially careless/gambling addicted of people. In the US it seems to have become a sad part of a lot of peoples' coping strategy if a medical emergency arises. Got cancer? No retirement for you I guess.

LockNess0 8y ago

You are paying for a huge welfare system that minimally benefits you. Without taxes, particularly payroll taxes, salaries would be similar in Western Europe to the US.