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This is very American centric. Whites in Europe are lucky to earn half that on architect positions (please don’t come up with „standard of living” and „social s

This is very American centric. Whites in Europe are lucky to earn half that on architect positions (please don’t come up with „standard of living” and „social services and benefits”).

johnvanommen 8y ago
I've heard the same thing about Canada.
myth_drannon 8y ago
Whites?
- core-questions 8y ago
  The article starts out with a fairly standard condemnation of white people for daring to keep our salary information to ourselves, and/or for daring to believe that we make the money we make fairly (you know, by delivering value to our employers).
  - danielg5 8y ago
    No, it doesn’t. It starts out with a tweet saying that people in general (not just white people) have issues with discussing salaries. The tweet then says that white people in particular should openly discuss their salaries because we all know that some companies try their best to swindle employees, and that in general white people have a better sense about what it means to be fairly compensated. Is that not what you read? Or did you just not agree with it? There is a footnote in the first paragraph that mentions white people and privilege. The purpose of the footnote was for the author to explain that even though he’s providing this information, it may not help non-white people. Either way, neither the tweet nor the footnote say what you’re saying.
    - gortok 8y ago
      Agreed (author here). It's a really taboo subject to talk about to begin with; and there are really two extremes that you'll hear: 1. It's a meritocracy and anyone can do this! (It isn't, and they can't) 2. Yea, this will work for you but not in general. (You're probably right on this one, as my salary and my progression are very personal things). To thread the needle, I'm trying to point out that I acknowledge #2, and explicitly reject #1 as empirically false; and I hope that by sharing my salary, I bring light to the fact that #1 is false, and that if more people who are similarly advantaged as I am talk about it, we can make #2 no longer be the case.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
vichu 8y ago
By "whites" here, I assume you mean "white-collar workers". Usually, in vernacular, "whites" is taken as a slightly derogatory metonym for "white people", so I was initially slightly taken aback by your comment. Sorry if I was being obtuse, but I have never heard the term "whites" used in this fashion.
- hk__2 8y ago
  The blog post talks about white people.
  - expertentipp 8y ago
    That was my impression as well.
dlivingston 8y ago
Why are dev salaries so much lower in Europe than in America?
- ramphastidae 8y ago
  Pretty straightforward I think: America is way ahead in terms of its economy, tech industry, and business environment and way behind in terms of government-provided social benefits.
- falsedan 8y ago
  Very interesting question. Most capital is deployed into fixed assets (like land) which generate regular dependable income. Excess capital is then invested in US companies.l (based on historical performance). Also: a B2C service startup in the US has a bigger potential market than the same one in Europe (assuming they’re targeting what they know—the local market). End result: no gigantic piles of cash looking for investment opportunities going to VCs to funnel into 100x success maybe startups, no companies minting money like crazy, no salary inflation
orcdork 8y ago
I don't see why you shouldnt come up with such "irrelevant minor stuff" like standard of living, mostly free healthcare & social services (depending on the country etc. You might not want to hear it, but for many people the whole not having to worry about healthcare is a massive benefit. I'm certainly not saying that a comparison is equal, but it feels like for anyone except the highly paid, the gap isn't that wide all things considered.
vecinu 8y ago
Don't forget that this is before taxes, retirement savings, healthcare and other deductions. You can't just hand-wave away "standard of living" and "social services and benefits". These may be things you take for granted but a large majority of the population has to have a large emergency refund in case they get severed from their company without any notice for any reason (Compare that with job security in France or Germany). Consider you need to save a ton of money yourself in government sponsored accounts such as HSA or FSAs for future healthcare expenses that you can't possibly estimate when you're 20 years old. (Compare that with the NHS in England). Consider you need to sock away a ton of money in 401ks and IRAs so that when you're 50 with no job prospects, you don't end up on the street and can actually have a decent retirement. Nobody is paying serious pensions and hardly anyone can survive on social security. (Compare that with the savings pillars in Switzerland). Now considering all this, you still think his salary is HUGE compared to a Western European one? I highly doubt it, I have already run the numbers myself.
- sometechie 8y ago
  Job prospects for information workers will be far better than those in physically demanding jobs. People’s bodies give out by 50. Not completely, but enough where they can’t do physically laborious work. The broader point of the new replacing the old is generally true (your marketability will decline by age 50), but I still see many baby boomers holding onto well paying positions for the foreseeable future. I save to hedge the risk, but I’m not too worried, since I believe the risk is over-stated.
- tuesdayrain 8y ago
  > These may be things you take for granted but a large majority of the population has to have a large emergency refund in case they get severed from their company without any notice for any reason This seems like somewhat of an idealistic view point when over half of Americans have less than 1k in their bank account.
  - tluyben2 8y ago
    Exactly: and in many countries in the EU you are still fine when that happens. Not so in the US.
acchow 8y ago
This is one person divulging their personal salary history. You're welcome (and encouraged) to share yours too as a European to add to the discussion.
brandonmenc 8y ago
If I never had to worry about healthcare or education costs for me or any member of my family for the rest of my life, I'd be fine making half of what I make now.
- expertentipp 8y ago
  But you still have to worry about these things though. The universal healthcare in countries like Poland and Romania is heavily underfunded and dysfunctional, in countries like Italy and Germany is skewed towards the older people who are the major voting demographic. German healthcare insurers had record high surplus recently, yet young people still pay extra for common things like various dentist, or eye doctor services. Bismarck-style pension system will face a turning point in the upcoming 1-2 decades, especially in countries like Italy, Germany, and Poland.

This is very American centric. Whites in Europe are lucky to earn half that on architect positions (please don’t come up with „standard of living” and „social services and benefits”).

johnvanommen 8y ago

I've heard the same thing about Canada.

myth_drannon 8y ago

Whites?

core-questions 8y ago
The article starts out with a fairly standard condemnation of white people for daring to keep our salary information to ourselves, and/or for daring to believe that we make the money we make fairly (you know, by delivering value to our employers).
- danielg5 8y ago
  No, it doesn’t. It starts out with a tweet saying that people in general (not just white people) have issues with discussing salaries. The tweet then says that white people in particular should openly discuss their salaries because we all know that some companies try their best to swindle employees, and that in general white people have a better sense about what it means to be fairly compensated. Is that not what you read? Or did you just not agree with it? There is a footnote in the first paragraph that mentions white people and privilege. The purpose of the footnote was for the author to explain that even though he’s providing this information, it may not help non-white people. Either way, neither the tweet nor the footnote say what you’re saying.
  - gortok 8y ago
    Agreed (author here). It's a really taboo subject to talk about to begin with; and there are really two extremes that you'll hear: 1. It's a meritocracy and anyone can do this! (It isn't, and they can't) 2. Yea, this will work for you but not in general. (You're probably right on this one, as my salary and my progression are very personal things). To thread the needle, I'm trying to point out that I acknowledge #2, and explicitly reject #1 as empirically false; and I hope that by sharing my salary, I bring light to the fact that #1 is false, and that if more people who are similarly advantaged as I am talk about it, we can make #2 no longer be the case.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

vichu 8y ago

By "whites" here, I assume you mean "white-collar workers". Usually, in vernacular, "whites" is taken as a slightly derogatory metonym for "white people", so I was initially slightly taken aback by your comment. Sorry if I was being obtuse, but I have never heard the term "whites" used in this fashion.

hk__2 8y ago
The blog post talks about white people.
- expertentipp 8y ago
  That was my impression as well.

dlivingston 8y ago

Why are dev salaries so much lower in Europe than in America?

ramphastidae 8y ago
Pretty straightforward I think: America is way ahead in terms of its economy, tech industry, and business environment and way behind in terms of government-provided social benefits.
falsedan 8y ago
Very interesting question. Most capital is deployed into fixed assets (like land) which generate regular dependable income. Excess capital is then invested in US companies.l (based on historical performance). Also: a B2C service startup in the US has a bigger potential market than the same one in Europe (assuming they’re targeting what they know—the local market). End result: no gigantic piles of cash looking for investment opportunities going to VCs to funnel into 100x success maybe startups, no companies minting money like crazy, no salary inflation

orcdork 8y ago

I don't see why you shouldnt come up with such "irrelevant minor stuff" like standard of living, mostly free healthcare & social services (depending on the country etc. You might not want to hear it, but for many people the whole not having to worry about healthcare is a massive benefit. I'm certainly not saying that a comparison is equal, but it feels like for anyone except the highly paid, the gap isn't that wide all things considered.

vecinu 8y ago

Don't forget that this is before taxes, retirement savings, healthcare and other deductions. You can't just hand-wave away "standard of living" and "social services and benefits". These may be things you take for granted but a large majority of the population has to have a large emergency refund in case they get severed from their company without any notice for any reason (Compare that with job security in France or Germany). Consider you need to save a ton of money yourself in government sponsored accounts such as HSA or FSAs for future healthcare expenses that you can't possibly estimate when you're 20 years old. (Compare that with the NHS in England). Consider you need to sock away a ton of money in 401ks and IRAs so that when you're 50 with no job prospects, you don't end up on the street and can actually have a decent retirement. Nobody is paying serious pensions and hardly anyone can survive on social security. (Compare that with the savings pillars in Switzerland). Now considering all this, you still think his salary is HUGE compared to a Western European one? I highly doubt it, I have already run the numbers myself.

sometechie 8y ago
Job prospects for information workers will be far better than those in physically demanding jobs. People’s bodies give out by 50. Not completely, but enough where they can’t do physically laborious work. The broader point of the new replacing the old is generally true (your marketability will decline by age 50), but I still see many baby boomers holding onto well paying positions for the foreseeable future. I save to hedge the risk, but I’m not too worried, since I believe the risk is over-stated.
tuesdayrain 8y ago
> These may be things you take for granted but a large majority of the population has to have a large emergency refund in case they get severed from their company without any notice for any reason This seems like somewhat of an idealistic view point when over half of Americans have less than 1k in their bank account.
- tluyben2 8y ago
  Exactly: and in many countries in the EU you are still fine when that happens. Not so in the US.

acchow 8y ago

This is one person divulging their personal salary history. You're welcome (and encouraged) to share yours too as a European to add to the discussion.

brandonmenc 8y ago

If I never had to worry about healthcare or education costs for me or any member of my family for the rest of my life, I'd be fine making half of what I make now.

expertentipp 8y ago
But you still have to worry about these things though. The universal healthcare in countries like Poland and Romania is heavily underfunded and dysfunctional, in countries like Italy and Germany is skewed towards the older people who are the major voting demographic. German healthcare insurers had record high surplus recently, yet young people still pay extra for common things like various dentist, or eye doctor services. Bismarck-style pension system will face a turning point in the upcoming 1-2 decades, especially in countries like Italy, Germany, and Poland.