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How does the theory of a faulty AoA sensor align with eye witness accounts of smoke coming from the plane? Also, the altitude data seems to cut out at it's pea

How does the theory of a faulty AoA sensor align with eye witness accounts of smoke coming from the plane? Also, the altitude data seems to cut out at it's peak. Was the decent so rapid it couldn't be tracked?

js2 8y ago
''Eyewitness memory is reconstructive,'' said Dr. Honts, who is not associated with the safety board. ''The biggest mistake you can make is to think about a memory like it's a videotape; there's not a permanent record there.'' The problem, he said, is that witnesses instinctively try to match events with their past experiences: ''How many plane crashes have you witnessed in real life? Probably none. But in the movies? A lot. In the movies, there's always smoke and there's always fire.'' https://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/23/weekinreview/ideas-trends-for-air-crash-detectives-seeing-isn-t-believing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/23/weekinreview/ideas-trends... See also “Reliability of Eyewitness Reports to a Major Aviation Accident”: https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=ijaaa https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&co...
MichaelApproved 8y ago
> How does the theory of a faulty AoA sensor align with eye witness accounts of smoke coming from the plane? They don't need to align. Eyewitness accounts are so bad, it's surprising they're allowed in court. "Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts - Eyewitness testimony is fickle and, all too often, shockingly inaccurate" > Many researchers have created false memories in normal individuals; what is more, many of these subjects are certain that the memories are real. > In one well-known study, Loftus and her colleague Jacqueline Pickrell gave subjects written accounts of four events, three of which they had actually experienced. The fourth story was fiction; it centered on the subject being lost in a mall or another public place when he or she was between four and six years old. A relative provided realistic details for the false story, such as a description of the mall at which the subject’s parents shopped. > After reading each story, subjects were asked to write down what else they remembered about the incident or to indicate that they did not remember it at all. Remarkably about one third of the subjects reported partially or fully remembering the false event. In two follow-up interviews, 25 percent still claimed that they remembered the untrue story, a figure consistent with the findings of similar studies. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-...
- refurb 8y ago
  You example is subjects believing a false story given to them. That's different than someone reporting something that they believed they saw with no prompting from anyone else.
  - stouset 8y ago
    Just because the specific story highlights one failing of eyewitness accounts doesn't mean there aren't many, many other ways they are spectacularly inaccurate.
  - semi-extrinsic 8y ago
    We don't know whether that happened in this case. Maybe journalist (who was there hours later) asked the eye witnesses "did you see smoke or hear strange sounds?" - if so, all bets are off.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    I'm curious what your personal thoughts on TWA 800 are.
xvf22 8y ago
Witness accounts are famously unreliable [1] [2]. They are saying that the flight profile so far matches what they saw with Lion Air 610. Until the FDR and CVR are analyzed the only reliable data is what they have from ADSB and whatever Satcom they have. [1] https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/23/eyewitness-accounts-can-reliably-unreliable/ka3b2Fxz6vVkqwgrgEQiJP/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/23/eyewitness-acco... [2] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-...
InclinedPlane 8y ago
People said they saw a missile hit TWA-800 too. Eyewitness accounts are super unreliable.
stordoff 8y ago
Eyewitness accounts are _notoriously_ unreliable. Multiple witnesses saw something approaching TWA-800: > Although there were considerable discrepancies between different accounts, most witnesses to the accident had seen a "streak of light" that was unanimously described as ascending, moving to a point where a large fireball appeared, with several witnesses reporting that the fireball split in two as it descended toward the water. > 258 were characterized as "streak of light" witnesses ("an object moving in the sky... variously described [as] a point of light, fireworks, a flare, a shooting star, or something similar.") The NTSB Witness Group concluded that the streak of light reported by witnesses might have been the actual airplane during some stage of its flight before the fireball developed > In addition, 18 witnesses reported seeing a streak of light that originated at the surface, or the horizon, which did not "appear to be consistent with the airplane's calculated flightpath and other known aspects of the accident sequence." > [T]he NTSB noted that based on their experience in previous investigations "witness reports are often inconsistent with the known facts or with other witnesses' reports of the same events." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800

js2 8y ago

''Eyewitness memory is reconstructive,'' said Dr. Honts, who is not associated with the safety board. ''The biggest mistake you can make is to think about a memory like it's a videotape; there's not a permanent record there.'' The problem, he said, is that witnesses instinctively try to match events with their past experiences: ''How many plane crashes have you witnessed in real life? Probably none. But in the movies? A lot. In the movies, there's always smoke and there's always fire.'' https://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/23/weekinreview/ideas-trends-for-air-crash-detectives-seeing-isn-t-believing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/23/weekinreview/ideas-trends... See also “Reliability of Eyewitness Reports to a Major Aviation Accident”: https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=ijaaa https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&co...

MichaelApproved 8y ago

> How does the theory of a faulty AoA sensor align with eye witness accounts of smoke coming from the plane? They don't need to align. Eyewitness accounts are so bad, it's surprising they're allowed in court. "Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts - Eyewitness testimony is fickle and, all too often, shockingly inaccurate" > Many researchers have created false memories in normal individuals; what is more, many of these subjects are certain that the memories are real. > In one well-known study, Loftus and her colleague Jacqueline Pickrell gave subjects written accounts of four events, three of which they had actually experienced. The fourth story was fiction; it centered on the subject being lost in a mall or another public place when he or she was between four and six years old. A relative provided realistic details for the false story, such as a description of the mall at which the subject’s parents shopped. > After reading each story, subjects were asked to write down what else they remembered about the incident or to indicate that they did not remember it at all. Remarkably about one third of the subjects reported partially or fully remembering the false event. In two follow-up interviews, 25 percent still claimed that they remembered the untrue story, a figure consistent with the findings of similar studies. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-...

refurb 8y ago
You example is subjects believing a false story given to them. That's different than someone reporting something that they believed they saw with no prompting from anyone else.
- stouset 8y ago
  Just because the specific story highlights one failing of eyewitness accounts doesn't mean there aren't many, many other ways they are spectacularly inaccurate.
- semi-extrinsic 8y ago
  We don't know whether that happened in this case. Maybe journalist (who was there hours later) asked the eye witnesses "did you see smoke or hear strange sounds?" - if so, all bets are off.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  I'm curious what your personal thoughts on TWA 800 are.

xvf22 8y ago

Witness accounts are famously unreliable [1] [2]. They are saying that the flight profile so far matches what they saw with Lion Air 610. Until the FDR and CVR are analyzed the only reliable data is what they have from ADSB and whatever Satcom they have. [1] https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/23/eyewitness-accounts-can-reliably-unreliable/ka3b2Fxz6vVkqwgrgEQiJP/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/23/eyewitness-acco... [2] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-...

InclinedPlane 8y ago

People said they saw a missile hit TWA-800 too. Eyewitness accounts are super unreliable.

stordoff 8y ago

Eyewitness accounts are _notoriously_ unreliable. Multiple witnesses saw something approaching TWA-800: > Although there were considerable discrepancies between different accounts, most witnesses to the accident had seen a "streak of light" that was unanimously described as ascending, moving to a point where a large fireball appeared, with several witnesses reporting that the fireball split in two as it descended toward the water. > 258 were characterized as "streak of light" witnesses ("an object moving in the sky... variously described [as] a point of light, fireworks, a flare, a shooting star, or something similar.") The NTSB Witness Group concluded that the streak of light reported by witnesses might have been the actual airplane during some stage of its flight before the fireball developed > In addition, 18 witnesses reported seeing a streak of light that originated at the surface, or the horizon, which did not "appear to be consistent with the airplane's calculated flightpath and other known aspects of the accident sequence." > [T]he NTSB noted that based on their experience in previous investigations "witness reports are often inconsistent with the known facts or with other witnesses' reports of the same events." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800