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People don't buy planes though, other corporations that are doing the same thing buy them. Southwest has probably pushed as much on making these things not as

People don't buy planes though, other corporations that are doing the same thing buy them. Southwest has probably pushed as much on making these things not as clear or as helpful as they could be to avoid having to retrain for a new type. And when this is said and done, they are going to buy more airplanes and people are going to continue to buy flights from them because they are cheap.

cat199 8y ago
Why single out southwest specifically in this hypothetical scenario? If any airline seems 'people focused' I'd think it would be them..
- wolfd 8y ago
  I assume because they exclusively fly 737s and have a good number of MAX 8s
  - acranox 8y ago
    https://www.southwest.com/html/advisories/swa_travel_advisory_20192141552591016643.html https://www.southwest.com/html/advisories/swa_travel_advisor... > Southwest operates a fleet of more than 750 Boeing 737s, and the 34 737 MAX 8 aircraft account for less than five (5) percent of our daily flights.
- wycy 8y ago
  Southwest is probably called out specifically here because they're somewhat unique in the airline world in that their entire fleet is 737s. This allows them to save on maintenance costs since there's so much commonality among their fleet, but puts them in more peril when something affects the entire class of craft.
  - jethro_tell 8y ago
    Also, because boeing said, 'we should label these switches like this and put them here', and southwest said, 'no, that will change the type and we will have to retrain pilots, we'd rather have things be the same type with an asterisks and just let our pilots know than retrain' And because southwest is the largest consumer of the 8max, Boeing did it. From what I understand, that was a precondition of sale for the contract. And the result it seems is that the plane can act in a way that is confusing to people who are expecting one behavior and seeing another, this comes right down to labeling switches as one thing, when they are kinda another. My assumption, and this will probably be borne out in the investigation, is that, because southwest was part of the decision process here, they are at very little risk because of a little additional lite pilot training where they point out these switches are labeled wrong and this behavior will seem funny but this is what it's going to do. But not all airlines are going to train like that, it's the same type right?
    - cat199 8y ago
      i've seen nothing of this southwest feature request in the coverage thus far - is there a source? either way, a customer requesting a design change doesn't make the customer part of the 'decision process' - customers request changes to the vendor, who then decides whether or not the change makes sense, and if necessary tries to influence customer expectations or at worst lose the business if necessary if it does not. If Boeing had a reasonable expectation that the avionics changes for the new jets would impact flight characteristics to the point that the pilots needed to be retrained, then they should have dealt accordingly, even if this meant sticking to the original design you claim and insisting southwest 'suck it up' as far as pilot retraining, and the decision not to do this, if true, was solely theirs to make. also, this wouldn't explain the 'buggy avionics software relying on a single sensor' which could also be part of the equation as I understand it.
- jsutton 8y ago
  Southwest was one of the first airlines to come out with a strong response, declaring full confidence in the MAX 8s.
mikeash 8y ago
The entire airline industry relies on a sterling reputation for safety. The experience is scary for a lot of people, and the ability to say “the ride to the airport is the most dangerous part” or “it’s safer than putting on pants standing up” does a great deal to get the public to accept air travel. If they lose that reputation, air travel would drop significantly and everyone involved would lose tons of money.

cat199 8y ago

Why single out southwest specifically in this hypothetical scenario? If any airline seems 'people focused' I'd think it would be them..

wolfd 8y ago
I assume because they exclusively fly 737s and have a good number of MAX 8s
- acranox 8y ago
  https://www.southwest.com/html/advisories/swa_travel_advisory_20192141552591016643.html https://www.southwest.com/html/advisories/swa_travel_advisor... > Southwest operates a fleet of more than 750 Boeing 737s, and the 34 737 MAX 8 aircraft account for less than five (5) percent of our daily flights.
wycy 8y ago
Southwest is probably called out specifically here because they're somewhat unique in the airline world in that their entire fleet is 737s. This allows them to save on maintenance costs since there's so much commonality among their fleet, but puts them in more peril when something affects the entire class of craft.
- jethro_tell 8y ago
  Also, because boeing said, 'we should label these switches like this and put them here', and southwest said, 'no, that will change the type and we will have to retrain pilots, we'd rather have things be the same type with an asterisks and just let our pilots know than retrain' And because southwest is the largest consumer of the 8max, Boeing did it. From what I understand, that was a precondition of sale for the contract. And the result it seems is that the plane can act in a way that is confusing to people who are expecting one behavior and seeing another, this comes right down to labeling switches as one thing, when they are kinda another. My assumption, and this will probably be borne out in the investigation, is that, because southwest was part of the decision process here, they are at very little risk because of a little additional lite pilot training where they point out these switches are labeled wrong and this behavior will seem funny but this is what it's going to do. But not all airlines are going to train like that, it's the same type right?
  - cat199 8y ago
    i've seen nothing of this southwest feature request in the coverage thus far - is there a source? either way, a customer requesting a design change doesn't make the customer part of the 'decision process' - customers request changes to the vendor, who then decides whether or not the change makes sense, and if necessary tries to influence customer expectations or at worst lose the business if necessary if it does not. If Boeing had a reasonable expectation that the avionics changes for the new jets would impact flight characteristics to the point that the pilots needed to be retrained, then they should have dealt accordingly, even if this meant sticking to the original design you claim and insisting southwest 'suck it up' as far as pilot retraining, and the decision not to do this, if true, was solely theirs to make. also, this wouldn't explain the 'buggy avionics software relying on a single sensor' which could also be part of the equation as I understand it.
jsutton 8y ago
Southwest was one of the first airlines to come out with a strong response, declaring full confidence in the MAX 8s.

mikeash 8y ago

The entire airline industry relies on a sterling reputation for safety. The experience is scary for a lot of people, and the ability to say “the ride to the airport is the most dangerous part” or “it’s safer than putting on pants standing up” does a great deal to get the public to accept air travel. If they lose that reputation, air travel would drop significantly and everyone involved would lose tons of money.