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What is the "deep state", exactly? I understand it to be the right's bogeyman on the left, but I've never heard it taken seriously outside of more...esoteric di

by rrook 8y ago

What is the "deep state", exactly? I understand it to be the right's bogeyman on the left, but I've never heard it taken seriously outside of more...esoteric discussions.

pjc50 8y ago
The security services and foreign services pursuing their own agenda, over and above (or even in contradiction to) the elected government's directions and supervision. It's rather odd framing this as a right vs. left discussion when traditionally it's been the other way round. FBI harassment of MLK, or COINTELPRO, are traditional examples of the deep state against the left. The left could write a very long charge sheet against the CIA. Of course, this is consistent with the argument that the people complaining about the deep state on the right aren't "organic" but instead funded by a foreign intelligence service.
- rrook 8y ago
  I didn't really mean to frame it as right vs left; that's just the context that I've seen the topic discussed in. I was hoping to be as neutral as possible with my query.
blancheneige 8y ago
well here are two examples with actual definitions to get you started. hopefully the guardian isn't too esoteric for you! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jul/17/iraq.usa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jul/17/iraq.usa >The ideologically driven network functioned like a shadow government, much of it off the official payroll and beyond congressional oversight. But it proved powerful enough to prevail in a struggle with the State Department and the CIA by establishing a justification for war. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/22/leaks-trump-deep-state-fbi-cia-michael-flynn https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/22/leaks-... >America doesn’t have coups or tanks in the street. But a deep state of sorts exists here and it includes national security bureaucrats who use secretly collected information to shape or curb the actions of elected officials.
- duxup 8y ago
  Budgetary messes and administrative Independence gets out of hand... partly because congress doesn't bother to provide real oversight. But the whole "deep state" term seems to imply a great deal more. We have people here claiming the CIA is doing this to undermine the president. That's not at all backed up or necessary follows bureaucracy operating on its own.
  - blancheneige 8y ago
    Those are nice euphemisms but giving these articles a critical read, particularly in light of the implications of the first one might do us more good than engaging in systematic and apologetic damage control
    - duxup 8y ago
      >engaging in systematic and apologetic damage control I don't know what you mean by that.

by rrook 8y ago

What is the "deep state", exactly? I understand it to be the right's bogeyman on the left, but I've never heard it taken seriously outside of more...esoteric discussions.

pjc50 8y ago

The security services and foreign services pursuing their own agenda, over and above (or even in contradiction to) the elected government's directions and supervision. It's rather odd framing this as a right vs. left discussion when traditionally it's been the other way round. FBI harassment of MLK, or COINTELPRO, are traditional examples of the deep state against the left. The left could write a very long charge sheet against the CIA. Of course, this is consistent with the argument that the people complaining about the deep state on the right aren't "organic" but instead funded by a foreign intelligence service.

rrook 8y ago
I didn't really mean to frame it as right vs left; that's just the context that I've seen the topic discussed in. I was hoping to be as neutral as possible with my query.

blancheneige 8y ago

well here are two examples with actual definitions to get you started. hopefully the guardian isn't too esoteric for you! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jul/17/iraq.usa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jul/17/iraq.usa >The ideologically driven network functioned like a shadow government, much of it off the official payroll and beyond congressional oversight. But it proved powerful enough to prevail in a struggle with the State Department and the CIA by establishing a justification for war. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/22/leaks-trump-deep-state-fbi-cia-michael-flynn https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/22/leaks-... >America doesn’t have coups or tanks in the street. But a deep state of sorts exists here and it includes national security bureaucrats who use secretly collected information to shape or curb the actions of elected officials.

duxup 8y ago
Budgetary messes and administrative Independence gets out of hand... partly because congress doesn't bother to provide real oversight. But the whole "deep state" term seems to imply a great deal more. We have people here claiming the CIA is doing this to undermine the president. That's not at all backed up or necessary follows bureaucracy operating on its own.
- blancheneige 8y ago
  Those are nice euphemisms but giving these articles a critical read, particularly in light of the implications of the first one might do us more good than engaging in systematic and apologetic damage control
  - duxup 8y ago
    >engaging in systematic and apologetic damage control I don't know what you mean by that.