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Retraining is a ridiculous proposition to address this issue, which is what he says about the topic as well.

by lawnchair_larry 8y ago

jniedrauer 8y ago
Just train all of the cashiers and truck drivers to become mechanical engineers. It's simple! /s
- everdev 8y ago
  Why do you jump from blue collar to high tech in the retraining conversation? Sounds like an extreme that people aren't arguing for. I think retraining a cole miner to use similar tools or equipment (like in a quarry) would be what most people are talking about. Or retraining retail to be in customer service.
  - rubinelli 8y ago
    The Green New Deal would create tens of thousands of blue collar jobs. Can a coal miner be retrained to install and maintain solar panels? I bet they can.
    - beat 8y ago
      So what if they can be trained to install solar panels? Are there going to be gobs of new solar panel installation jobs in their hometowns where the coal mine closed? This is a huge part of the problem. The brightest and most ambitious get out of dying communities and go elsewhere (heck, America is made largely of the descendants of people who did exactly that). But not everyone wants to move away from their hometown. Not everyone has the resources to start over somewhere else, even if they wanted to do so.
      - dllthomas 8y ago
        > Are there going to be gobs of new solar panel installation jobs in their hometowns where the coal mine closed? Maybe if everyone's, say, getting a $1000/mo UBI...
        lawnchair_larry 8y ago
        Is anyone silly enough to think even one former coal miner is going to spend their $1k on solar panels?
        dllthomas 8y ago
        I don't see why you're silly enough to think none would. I certainly agree that a former coal miner with no source of income but the UBI is unlikely to, at best. But a former coal miner re-employed, with an additional extra $1k, doesn't seem any more unlikely than baseline. And if all the still-unemployed former coal miners in town have $1k/mo instead of $0/mo, there is much more opportunity for former coal miners (and everyone else in town) to offer them services.
thanatropism 8y ago
Retraining is literally the #learntocode meme.
- haukilup 8y ago
  That seems like a gross oversimplification. Retraining could fit as a component of a much larger plan to tackle the issues facing the job market and employability of people in these fields. Or maybe it can't. Either way, oversimplifying doesn't further the discussion. It doesn't have to be from coal miner to software engineer, or some kind of massive transformation. Skills training and education for adults is more than that, IMO.
- Grue3 8y ago
  It's not a meme, it's a good advice. There is no person who will regret learning to code. Even if they end up doing something else, knowing how to code would definitely come in handy for something.
  - everdev 8y ago
    I think the point of contention is that not everyone is well suited for it. Certain people are strong creatively but not analytically. If you love socializing and want to work with people or love being outdoors and working with your hands or tools there's no reason to learn how to code. It's like saying no one will regret learning to farm or hunt. They're essential should for some of us but we become incredibly inefficient as a society if we all try to learn all of the important skills.
  - thanatropism 8y ago
    My academic background and work experience is 95% outside the software field but I've always liked the idea of programming. Since a little kid with an already anachronic ZX Spectrum. I would write programs by hand in a notebook waiting for it to arrive. When the time came that my profession sort of blended in with data science (or rather that data science became a part of it and we'd rather keep the domain experts), I had/am having a great time. So I understand the tunnel vision. The thing is that people have different talents and inclinations. Despite the outstanding role of economic necessity, liking or even being proud of something about one's work life is a psychological necessity that has to be much more common than enjoying code. I see construction workers on top of tall buildings to be, looking into the sky -- they must like this feeling, or the endorphins of hard physical labor, or the fact that something so tangible and durable is coming out of their muscle aches. Or something. There are easier ways to make a lower-class wage than work on top of buildings. I don't like dealing with new people a lot, so I would be miserable working the cashier in a 24/7 store. But there has to be some psychological return to this work. Despite people resenting it and sort of being stuck for economic reasons. Would these people have the same sense of accomplishment and belonging-in-the-world as middling coders in the typical death-march situations coders experience in real life?

Retraining is a ridiculous proposition to address this issue, which is what he says about the topic as well.

jniedrauer 8y ago

Just train all of the cashiers and truck drivers to become mechanical engineers. It's simple! /s

everdev 8y ago
Why do you jump from blue collar to high tech in the retraining conversation? Sounds like an extreme that people aren't arguing for. I think retraining a cole miner to use similar tools or equipment (like in a quarry) would be what most people are talking about. Or retraining retail to be in customer service.
- rubinelli 8y ago
  The Green New Deal would create tens of thousands of blue collar jobs. Can a coal miner be retrained to install and maintain solar panels? I bet they can.
  - beat 8y ago
    So what if they can be trained to install solar panels? Are there going to be gobs of new solar panel installation jobs in their hometowns where the coal mine closed? This is a huge part of the problem. The brightest and most ambitious get out of dying communities and go elsewhere (heck, America is made largely of the descendants of people who did exactly that). But not everyone wants to move away from their hometown. Not everyone has the resources to start over somewhere else, even if they wanted to do so.
    - dllthomas 8y ago
      > Are there going to be gobs of new solar panel installation jobs in their hometowns where the coal mine closed? Maybe if everyone's, say, getting a $1000/mo UBI...
      - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
        Is anyone silly enough to think even one former coal miner is going to spend their $1k on solar panels?
        dllthomas 8y ago
        I don't see why you're silly enough to think none would. I certainly agree that a former coal miner with no source of income but the UBI is unlikely to, at best. But a former coal miner re-employed, with an additional extra $1k, doesn't seem any more unlikely than baseline. And if all the still-unemployed former coal miners in town have $1k/mo instead of $0/mo, there is much more opportunity for former coal miners (and everyone else in town) to offer them services.

thanatropism 8y ago

Retraining is literally the #learntocode meme.

haukilup 8y ago
That seems like a gross oversimplification. Retraining could fit as a component of a much larger plan to tackle the issues facing the job market and employability of people in these fields. Or maybe it can't. Either way, oversimplifying doesn't further the discussion. It doesn't have to be from coal miner to software engineer, or some kind of massive transformation. Skills training and education for adults is more than that, IMO.
Grue3 8y ago
It's not a meme, it's a good advice. There is no person who will regret learning to code. Even if they end up doing something else, knowing how to code would definitely come in handy for something.
- everdev 8y ago
  I think the point of contention is that not everyone is well suited for it. Certain people are strong creatively but not analytically. If you love socializing and want to work with people or love being outdoors and working with your hands or tools there's no reason to learn how to code. It's like saying no one will regret learning to farm or hunt. They're essential should for some of us but we become incredibly inefficient as a society if we all try to learn all of the important skills.
- thanatropism 8y ago
  My academic background and work experience is 95% outside the software field but I've always liked the idea of programming. Since a little kid with an already anachronic ZX Spectrum. I would write programs by hand in a notebook waiting for it to arrive. When the time came that my profession sort of blended in with data science (or rather that data science became a part of it and we'd rather keep the domain experts), I had/am having a great time. So I understand the tunnel vision. The thing is that people have different talents and inclinations. Despite the outstanding role of economic necessity, liking or even being proud of something about one's work life is a psychological necessity that has to be much more common than enjoying code. I see construction workers on top of tall buildings to be, looking into the sky -- they must like this feeling, or the endorphins of hard physical labor, or the fact that something so tangible and durable is coming out of their muscle aches. Or something. There are easier ways to make a lower-class wage than work on top of buildings. I don't like dealing with new people a lot, so I would be miserable working the cashier in a 24/7 store. But there has to be some psychological return to this work. Despite people resenting it and sort of being stuck for economic reasons. Would these people have the same sense of accomplishment and belonging-in-the-world as middling coders in the typical death-march situations coders experience in real life?