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> Signal actively blocks chats from being backed up (and restored) on iOS. I don't think that's true. Signal's backups require you to copy a file from your ol

by ardy42 8y ago

> Signal actively blocks chats from being backed up (and restored) on iOS. I don't think that's true. Signal's backups require you to copy a file from your old phone to your new phone's storage. It's possible on Android to mount your phone's filesystem on a PC. IIRC, Apple is the one that doesn't make that easy on iOS, not Signal.

newscracker 8y ago
What I said (specifically about iOS) is true and has been so since 2015 (or earlier). See [1] and [2] that I linked in another comment here and check on backups explicitly being denied on iOS. This has nothing to do with Apple, and everything to do with the Signal team not willing to make it user friendly (for this case). [1]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ [2]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/905 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/905
- tivert 8y ago
  > See [1] and [2] that I linked in another comment here and check on backups explicitly being denied on iOS. They apparently have an open issue for this (though it looks like it's locked to prevent people from endlessly complaining in their bug tracker). https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/2542 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/2542 It also sounds like they have a branch where they're working on this feature: https://whispersystems.discoursehosting.net/t/ios-backup-keeping-message-history-when-switching-phones/1736/35 https://whispersystems.discoursehosting.net/t/ios-backup-kee... > This has nothing to do with Apple, and everything to do with the Signal team not willing to make it user friendly (for this case). I'd be interested to know the precise reason they have for not implementing this. You seem to have a pretty negative opinion of Signal, but I doubt they've avoided implementing backups on iOS just because they're "not willing to make it user friendly" (which is really uncharitable take, btw). Perhaps there's some nuance to iOS that makes backups far more difficult to implement than on Android while providing the same security guarantees.
  - newscracker 8y ago
    The reason given is “security”, or to copy paste from the link I have given: “iTunes backups are disabled to prevent plaintext leakage to iCloud or insecure systems.” I have a negative opinion of Signal because they have not dealt with this for years and have been stubborn on that point. Please read the comments on the link I have given and also look at issues they have closed on the same topic. Their responses on the issue tracker don’t look user friendly. So I go with what I’ve seen (which is available for you to examine and make your own inferences too). For a very long time, I’ve wanted to recommend Signal to others (I still use it, but not for anything that I’d want to save for longer). But this particular issue, introduced and imposed by the Signal team, is a deal breaker. Which average user would want to rejoin all groups or lose all chat history because they bought a new iPhone? If this self-imposed issue is not an example of being user unfriendly, then what is?
    - tivert 8y ago
      > I have a negative opinion of Signal because they have not dealt with this for years and have been stubborn on that point. Why? It's their time and I doubt you're their boss. > But this particular issue, introduced and imposed by the Signal team, is a deal breaker. It seems like you just fundamentally disagree with their priorities, which is kind of a poor reason for having a negative opinion of them. It seems like they want to create the maximally secure yet reasonably usable chat app, and you want a maximally convenient yet reasonably secure chat app. IMHO, Signal's priorities are far more unique and innovative, and that's why they have my support. Literally every other app out there decides to make the opposite trade offs.
      - newscracker 8y ago
        I’m not their boss, but who says I can’t criticize it if it doesn’t meet my and others’ needs? If you observe all the discussions here on HN, you’d see that most of the criticisms and disagreements that people have with someone or some company relates to priorities not matching. Signal is not getting some special mistreatment here. In my other comments I have mentioned (that I have been) focusing on selling Signal to the average user. That doesn’t work well because of such issues (I have also listed other issues with Signal in some other comments here). If Signal wants to become more popular, then it should also look at what average users need right now (the deal breakers) when prioritizing requirements and features. As I said in another comment, Signal seems focused on investigative journalists, dissidents and activists. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it reflects poorly on people who comment on HN recommending that everybody should use Signal.
dunham 8y ago
Apple has backup and restore of device files and the keychain. You can explicitly mark files as "don't back up" and mark keychain items as "this device only" (those items will get backed up, but need a key from the security enclave of that specific device to restore). It sounds like Signal is explicitly marking its data in this fashion on iOS. I don't know if Android has any options like this for securing data, I'd expect Signal to utilize those options if they were available.

by ardy42 8y ago

newscracker 8y ago

What I said (specifically about iOS) is true and has been so since 2015 (or earlier). See [1] and [2] that I linked in another comment here and check on backups explicitly being denied on iOS. This has nothing to do with Apple, and everything to do with the Signal team not willing to make it user friendly (for this case). [1]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ [2]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/905 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/905

tivert 8y ago
> See [1] and [2] that I linked in another comment here and check on backups explicitly being denied on iOS. They apparently have an open issue for this (though it looks like it's locked to prevent people from endlessly complaining in their bug tracker). https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/2542 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/2542 It also sounds like they have a branch where they're working on this feature: https://whispersystems.discoursehosting.net/t/ios-backup-keeping-message-history-when-switching-phones/1736/35 https://whispersystems.discoursehosting.net/t/ios-backup-kee... > This has nothing to do with Apple, and everything to do with the Signal team not willing to make it user friendly (for this case). I'd be interested to know the precise reason they have for not implementing this. You seem to have a pretty negative opinion of Signal, but I doubt they've avoided implementing backups on iOS just because they're "not willing to make it user friendly" (which is really uncharitable take, btw). Perhaps there's some nuance to iOS that makes backups far more difficult to implement than on Android while providing the same security guarantees.
- newscracker 8y ago
  The reason given is “security”, or to copy paste from the link I have given: “iTunes backups are disabled to prevent plaintext leakage to iCloud or insecure systems.” I have a negative opinion of Signal because they have not dealt with this for years and have been stubborn on that point. Please read the comments on the link I have given and also look at issues they have closed on the same topic. Their responses on the issue tracker don’t look user friendly. So I go with what I’ve seen (which is available for you to examine and make your own inferences too). For a very long time, I’ve wanted to recommend Signal to others (I still use it, but not for anything that I’d want to save for longer). But this particular issue, introduced and imposed by the Signal team, is a deal breaker. Which average user would want to rejoin all groups or lose all chat history because they bought a new iPhone? If this self-imposed issue is not an example of being user unfriendly, then what is?
  - tivert 8y ago
    > I have a negative opinion of Signal because they have not dealt with this for years and have been stubborn on that point. Why? It's their time and I doubt you're their boss. > But this particular issue, introduced and imposed by the Signal team, is a deal breaker. It seems like you just fundamentally disagree with their priorities, which is kind of a poor reason for having a negative opinion of them. It seems like they want to create the maximally secure yet reasonably usable chat app, and you want a maximally convenient yet reasonably secure chat app. IMHO, Signal's priorities are far more unique and innovative, and that's why they have my support. Literally every other app out there decides to make the opposite trade offs.
    - newscracker 8y ago
      I’m not their boss, but who says I can’t criticize it if it doesn’t meet my and others’ needs? If you observe all the discussions here on HN, you’d see that most of the criticisms and disagreements that people have with someone or some company relates to priorities not matching. Signal is not getting some special mistreatment here. In my other comments I have mentioned (that I have been) focusing on selling Signal to the average user. That doesn’t work well because of such issues (I have also listed other issues with Signal in some other comments here). If Signal wants to become more popular, then it should also look at what average users need right now (the deal breakers) when prioritizing requirements and features. As I said in another comment, Signal seems focused on investigative journalists, dissidents and activists. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it reflects poorly on people who comment on HN recommending that everybody should use Signal.

dunham 8y ago

Apple has backup and restore of device files and the keychain. You can explicitly mark files as "don't back up" and mark keychain items as "this device only" (those items will get backed up, but need a key from the security enclave of that specific device to restore). It sounds like Signal is explicitly marking its data in this fashion on iOS. I don't know if Android has any options like this for securing data, I'd expect Signal to utilize those options if they were available.