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> When talking about privacy these articles should at least mention Signal. I hope they will use their recent funding [2] to polish their apps and increase the

> When talking about privacy these articles should at least mention Signal. I hope they will use their recent funding [2] to polish their apps and increase the speed of innovation. I keep repeating this often, but Signal is not a user friendly platform for average users. It is good for ephemeral chats and conversations that one wouldn't care about later. Signal actively blocks chats from being backed up (and restored) on iOS. So if you switch to a new device, you'd have to start afresh without any chat histories and also join all the groups once again. The fact that this issue was opened a long time ago on GitHub and responded to by saying it's a security issue to allow backups shows what audience Signal is focusing on (investigative journalists, dissidents and activists who use burner devices and don't need any traces of chats to linger around). Telegram, on the other hand (even with the not-end-to-end-encrypted default), makes for easy moves between devices (supporting chat syncing across OSes and devices) and to newer devices, with every chat showing information shared as links, photos, etc., and very easy to get back to. Of course, since the chats are not stored encrypted on its servers, search is also blazingly fast. One deficiency with Telegram is that the end-to-end encrypted chats ("secret chats") are tied to phones and can't be initiated from other devices or seen from other devices. Those also don't carry over to a new device. There is no technical reason for this, because Wire (which in my opinion is a better alternative to Signal and easier to sell others on) handles end-to-end encryption with syncing across devices.

ardy42 8y ago
> Signal actively blocks chats from being backed up (and restored) on iOS. I don't think that's true. Signal's backups require you to copy a file from your old phone to your new phone's storage. It's possible on Android to mount your phone's filesystem on a PC. IIRC, Apple is the one that doesn't make that easy on iOS, not Signal.
- newscracker 8y ago
  What I said (specifically about iOS) is true and has been so since 2015 (or earlier). See [1] and [2] that I linked in another comment here and check on backups explicitly being denied on iOS. This has nothing to do with Apple, and everything to do with the Signal team not willing to make it user friendly (for this case). [1]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ [2]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/905 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/905
  - tivert 8y ago
    > See [1] and [2] that I linked in another comment here and check on backups explicitly being denied on iOS. They apparently have an open issue for this (though it looks like it's locked to prevent people from endlessly complaining in their bug tracker). https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/2542 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/2542 It also sounds like they have a branch where they're working on this feature: https://whispersystems.discoursehosting.net/t/ios-backup-keeping-message-history-when-switching-phones/1736/35 https://whispersystems.discoursehosting.net/t/ios-backup-kee... > This has nothing to do with Apple, and everything to do with the Signal team not willing to make it user friendly (for this case). I'd be interested to know the precise reason they have for not implementing this. You seem to have a pretty negative opinion of Signal, but I doubt they've avoided implementing backups on iOS just because they're "not willing to make it user friendly" (which is really uncharitable take, btw). Perhaps there's some nuance to iOS that makes backups far more difficult to implement than on Android while providing the same security guarantees.
    - newscracker 8y ago
      The reason given is “security”, or to copy paste from the link I have given: “iTunes backups are disabled to prevent plaintext leakage to iCloud or insecure systems.” I have a negative opinion of Signal because they have not dealt with this for years and have been stubborn on that point. Please read the comments on the link I have given and also look at issues they have closed on the same topic. Their responses on the issue tracker don’t look user friendly. So I go with what I’ve seen (which is available for you to examine and make your own inferences too). For a very long time, I’ve wanted to recommend Signal to others (I still use it, but not for anything that I’d want to save for longer). But this particular issue, introduced and imposed by the Signal team, is a deal breaker. Which average user would want to rejoin all groups or lose all chat history because they bought a new iPhone? If this self-imposed issue is not an example of being user unfriendly, then what is?
      - tivert 8y ago
        > I have a negative opinion of Signal because they have not dealt with this for years and have been stubborn on that point. Why? It's their time and I doubt you're their boss. > But this particular issue, introduced and imposed by the Signal team, is a deal breaker. It seems like you just fundamentally disagree with their priorities, which is kind of a poor reason for having a negative opinion of them. It seems like they want to create the maximally secure yet reasonably usable chat app, and you want a maximally convenient yet reasonably secure chat app. IMHO, Signal's priorities are far more unique and innovative, and that's why they have my support. Literally every other app out there decides to make the opposite trade offs.
- dunham 8y ago
  Apple has backup and restore of device files and the keychain. You can explicitly mark files as "don't back up" and mark keychain items as "this device only" (those items will get backed up, but need a key from the security enclave of that specific device to restore). It sounds like Signal is explicitly marking its data in this fashion on iOS. I don't know if Android has any options like this for securing data, I'd expect Signal to utilize those options if they were available.
codedokode 8y ago
Signal requires a phone number that discloses your identity and location, they could have more privacy if they didn't require it.
kitsunesoba 8y ago
I’ll have to check, but I’m pretty sure the Mac Cocoa version of Telegram (not the Mac Qt version) supports secret chat initiation.
- Aloha 8y ago
  Yes, it does.
tivert 8y ago
> I keep repeating this often, but Signal is not a user friendly platform for average users. That's not really true. Signal and WhatsApp are basically the same, and WhatsApp's massive popularity gives strong evidence for their user friendliness.
- AtHeartEngineer 8y ago
  Whatsapps keys are stored on their servers, which Facebook owns. I don't consider WhatsApp anymore secure than Twitter DMs.
  - ubercow13 8y ago
    Are they? That seems like an extraordinary claim. Do you have a source?
    - rickycook 8y ago
      it’s not quite that brazen, but from what i remember the whatsapp server can push a new public key for your contact/chat to the device, which means that they can MITM you. the chat shows that the key changed, but most users wouldn’t know what that means and ignore it
      - ubercow13 8y ago
        Isn't that how Signal works too? What else would it do, disallow you from continuing the chat if the key changes?
        acct1771 8y ago
        Until reverification? Sure.
        ubercow13 8y ago
        In that case most users similarly won't know what reverification means and will just click through without verifying anything. It's not reasonable to say that that makes Whatsapp only as secure as Twitter DMs.

ardy42 8y ago

> Signal actively blocks chats from being backed up (and restored) on iOS. I don't think that's true. Signal's backups require you to copy a file from your old phone to your new phone's storage. It's possible on Android to mount your phone's filesystem on a PC. IIRC, Apple is the one that doesn't make that easy on iOS, not Signal.

newscracker 8y ago
What I said (specifically about iOS) is true and has been so since 2015 (or earlier). See [1] and [2] that I linked in another comment here and check on backups explicitly being denied on iOS. This has nothing to do with Apple, and everything to do with the Signal team not willing to make it user friendly (for this case). [1]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/wiki/FAQ [2]: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/905 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/905
- tivert 8y ago
  > See [1] and [2] that I linked in another comment here and check on backups explicitly being denied on iOS. They apparently have an open issue for this (though it looks like it's locked to prevent people from endlessly complaining in their bug tracker). https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/2542 https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/2542 It also sounds like they have a branch where they're working on this feature: https://whispersystems.discoursehosting.net/t/ios-backup-keeping-message-history-when-switching-phones/1736/35 https://whispersystems.discoursehosting.net/t/ios-backup-kee... > This has nothing to do with Apple, and everything to do with the Signal team not willing to make it user friendly (for this case). I'd be interested to know the precise reason they have for not implementing this. You seem to have a pretty negative opinion of Signal, but I doubt they've avoided implementing backups on iOS just because they're "not willing to make it user friendly" (which is really uncharitable take, btw). Perhaps there's some nuance to iOS that makes backups far more difficult to implement than on Android while providing the same security guarantees.
  - newscracker 8y ago
    The reason given is “security”, or to copy paste from the link I have given: “iTunes backups are disabled to prevent plaintext leakage to iCloud or insecure systems.” I have a negative opinion of Signal because they have not dealt with this for years and have been stubborn on that point. Please read the comments on the link I have given and also look at issues they have closed on the same topic. Their responses on the issue tracker don’t look user friendly. So I go with what I’ve seen (which is available for you to examine and make your own inferences too). For a very long time, I’ve wanted to recommend Signal to others (I still use it, but not for anything that I’d want to save for longer). But this particular issue, introduced and imposed by the Signal team, is a deal breaker. Which average user would want to rejoin all groups or lose all chat history because they bought a new iPhone? If this self-imposed issue is not an example of being user unfriendly, then what is?
    - tivert 8y ago
      > I have a negative opinion of Signal because they have not dealt with this for years and have been stubborn on that point. Why? It's their time and I doubt you're their boss. > But this particular issue, introduced and imposed by the Signal team, is a deal breaker. It seems like you just fundamentally disagree with their priorities, which is kind of a poor reason for having a negative opinion of them. It seems like they want to create the maximally secure yet reasonably usable chat app, and you want a maximally convenient yet reasonably secure chat app. IMHO, Signal's priorities are far more unique and innovative, and that's why they have my support. Literally every other app out there decides to make the opposite trade offs.
dunham 8y ago
Apple has backup and restore of device files and the keychain. You can explicitly mark files as "don't back up" and mark keychain items as "this device only" (those items will get backed up, but need a key from the security enclave of that specific device to restore). It sounds like Signal is explicitly marking its data in this fashion on iOS. I don't know if Android has any options like this for securing data, I'd expect Signal to utilize those options if they were available.

codedokode 8y ago

Signal requires a phone number that discloses your identity and location, they could have more privacy if they didn't require it.

kitsunesoba 8y ago

I’ll have to check, but I’m pretty sure the Mac Cocoa version of Telegram (not the Mac Qt version) supports secret chat initiation.

Aloha 8y ago
Yes, it does.

tivert 8y ago

> I keep repeating this often, but Signal is not a user friendly platform for average users. That's not really true. Signal and WhatsApp are basically the same, and WhatsApp's massive popularity gives strong evidence for their user friendliness.

AtHeartEngineer 8y ago
Whatsapps keys are stored on their servers, which Facebook owns. I don't consider WhatsApp anymore secure than Twitter DMs.
- ubercow13 8y ago
  Are they? That seems like an extraordinary claim. Do you have a source?
  - rickycook 8y ago
    it’s not quite that brazen, but from what i remember the whatsapp server can push a new public key for your contact/chat to the device, which means that they can MITM you. the chat shows that the key changed, but most users wouldn’t know what that means and ignore it
    - ubercow13 8y ago
      Isn't that how Signal works too? What else would it do, disallow you from continuing the chat if the key changes?
      - acct1771 8y ago
        Until reverification? Sure.
        ubercow13 8y ago
        In that case most users similarly won't know what reverification means and will just click through without verifying anything. It's not reasonable to say that that makes Whatsapp only as secure as Twitter DMs.