4 ms·

This article reminds of something Gregory Cochran has been saying for years - "Your genes didn't evolve to kill you". He has a hypothesis that many of the illn

by defen 16y ago

This article reminds of something Gregory Cochran has been saying for years - "Your genes didn't evolve to kill you". He has a hypothesis that many of the illnesses and chronic conditions that do not have a clear genetic or environmental toxin basis are actually caused by germs - bacteria or viruses. This would include things like heart disease, diabetes, some cancers, some mental illnesses, etc. The problem is that many of these things do not satisfy Koch's postulates for infectious disease, making it very difficult to test. Or the disease progression takes 40+ years. Unfortunately I'm on my phone at the moment so I can't look anything up, else I would post some links.

run4yourlives 16y ago
That thesis would assume that we all live in some sort of bubble were the environment we live in and the foods we consume don't impact our bodies... Heart Disease is mainly caused by a lifetime of poor behaviour in this regard, for example.
- defen 16y ago
  Yep. But as an example, there is currently research looking into the connection between dental hygiene and heart disease. It's all hypothesis at this point, but a lifetime of eating sugary/starchy foods and poor dental hygiene can lead to gums the inflame/bleed easily, which can lead to bacteria more easily getting into your bloodstream, which may contribute to atherosclerosis. http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/features/periodontal-disease-heart-health http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/features/periodontal-dise...
  - carbocation 16y ago
    From that article: "And one study found that the presence of common problems in the mouth, including gum disease (gingivitis), cavities, and missing teeth, were as good at predicting heart disease as cholesterol levels." From the cardiovascular perspective, it's far simpler to conclude that poor vascular perfusion of the mouth can amplify oral disease than it is to postulate an entirely new paradigm upending decades of established research. Vascular disease predisposes you to infections of the limbs; why would we not expect the same in the mouth? If offered the ability to bet on one vs the other, this is the situation where I'd use my assets as collateral so I could put the maximum possible wager on the line in favor of vascular disease being the causal entity here, not periodontal disease.
    - defen 16y ago
      That was just an example - another potential bad guy could be Chlamydophila pneumoniae. Of course something like heart disease is probably caused by a myriad of interacting factors, so I wouldn't want to take your wager. I definitely don't assign a lot of confidence to the established research in health and nutrition though - for example, I think the food guide pyramid is bad advice and based on bad science, but it's been officially promulgated by the U.S. government for close to two decades now.
      - AnthonBerg 16y ago
        That's interesting, can you throw me a link or two about the food guide pyramid and fixes thereto?
        defen 16y ago
        I thought Good Calories, Bad Calories was very good. It's about the bad science behind the high-carb, low-fat diet advice. From there you can get into things like paleo diet etc. I'm not recommending any particular diet - there are plenty of people who think Taubes is full of it (http://reason.com/archives/2003/03/01/big-fat-fake http://reason.com/archives/2003/03/01/big-fat-fake http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/bray-review-of-gcbc.pdf http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/wp-content/uploads/2008/0...), and I'm not a doctor and have no training in the field. Just an interested observer, since diet, nutrition, and exercise is the base for anything else you're going to do in your life. Amazon link - http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400040787 http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/14000... Google Books preview - http://books.google.com/books?id=Xdm40JUD9HwC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=Xdm40JUD9HwC&printsec=f...
    - rsheridan6 16y ago
      Are inflamed, bleeding gums really poorly perfused?
hugh3 16y ago
Your genes sure as hell didn't evolve to make you immortal, either. They evolved in the hopes that you'll live long enough to make a few new copies of them, and engineering the vital parts of the body to last significantly longer wasn't a high priority. I'd be disinclined to throw out the huge volume of research on the subject of what actually causes heart disease and cancer due to a pithy slogan.
InclinedPlane 16y ago
Death is an evolved trait. It's an advantage for most organisms because it ensures a steady turnover of populations which enables micro and macro evolution at a reasonable pace in response to environmental, climate, et al changes.
- powrtoch 16y ago
  Sounds like the bad kind of group selectionism hypothesis to me. Death bestows no fitness benefit to the individual, and is therefore not evolutionarily selected for. Organisms don't die because evolution says they should, they die because evolution doesn't care.
  - skybrian 16y ago
    It's more active than that. A trait that enhances reproduction and reduces longevity will be selected for, so whenever there are engineering tradeoffs between reproduction and longevity, evolution will select in favor of reproduction.
    - loewenskind 16y ago
      Odd then that the most advanced species have the longest gestation periods and the simplest species have the shortest.
      - eru 16y ago
        That's because there's no advanced and simple in evolution.
        loewenskind 16y ago
        My point was that the parents comment was completely unfounded. Did humans always have super fast gestation periods and then right before we gained intelligence it suddenly took the better part of a year and produced a child that isn't self sufficient for at least a decade? When the evolution subject comes up it always seems to inspire a bunch of would-be scifi writers to come out and explain "how it all works" based on, as near as I can tell, pure fantasy.
rsheridan6 16y ago
Cochran collaborator Paul Ewald (they wrote an article hypothesizing that homosexuality is also caused by a pathogen) wrote a book about that subject 10 years ago. This article reminded me about that too, probably because it mentioned the same researcher: http://books.google.com/books?id=HlmxmE6TMCwC&lpg=PP1&ots=PGCP7rY0O0&dq=plague%20time%20paul%20ewald&pg=PA156#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=HlmxmE6TMCwC&lpg=PP1&#3...

by defen 16y ago

run4yourlives 16y ago

That thesis would assume that we all live in some sort of bubble were the environment we live in and the foods we consume don't impact our bodies... Heart Disease is mainly caused by a lifetime of poor behaviour in this regard, for example.

defen 16y ago
Yep. But as an example, there is currently research looking into the connection between dental hygiene and heart disease. It's all hypothesis at this point, but a lifetime of eating sugary/starchy foods and poor dental hygiene can lead to gums the inflame/bleed easily, which can lead to bacteria more easily getting into your bloodstream, which may contribute to atherosclerosis. http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/features/periodontal-disease-heart-health http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/features/periodontal-dise...
- carbocation 16y ago
  From that article: "And one study found that the presence of common problems in the mouth, including gum disease (gingivitis), cavities, and missing teeth, were as good at predicting heart disease as cholesterol levels." From the cardiovascular perspective, it's far simpler to conclude that poor vascular perfusion of the mouth can amplify oral disease than it is to postulate an entirely new paradigm upending decades of established research. Vascular disease predisposes you to infections of the limbs; why would we not expect the same in the mouth? If offered the ability to bet on one vs the other, this is the situation where I'd use my assets as collateral so I could put the maximum possible wager on the line in favor of vascular disease being the causal entity here, not periodontal disease.
  - defen 16y ago
    That was just an example - another potential bad guy could be Chlamydophila pneumoniae. Of course something like heart disease is probably caused by a myriad of interacting factors, so I wouldn't want to take your wager. I definitely don't assign a lot of confidence to the established research in health and nutrition though - for example, I think the food guide pyramid is bad advice and based on bad science, but it's been officially promulgated by the U.S. government for close to two decades now.
    - AnthonBerg 16y ago
      That's interesting, can you throw me a link or two about the food guide pyramid and fixes thereto?
      - defen 16y ago
        I thought Good Calories, Bad Calories was very good. It's about the bad science behind the high-carb, low-fat diet advice. From there you can get into things like paleo diet etc. I'm not recommending any particular diet - there are plenty of people who think Taubes is full of it (http://reason.com/archives/2003/03/01/big-fat-fake http://reason.com/archives/2003/03/01/big-fat-fake http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/bray-review-of-gcbc.pdf http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/wp-content/uploads/2008/0...), and I'm not a doctor and have no training in the field. Just an interested observer, since diet, nutrition, and exercise is the base for anything else you're going to do in your life. Amazon link - http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400040787 http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/14000... Google Books preview - http://books.google.com/books?id=Xdm40JUD9HwC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=Xdm40JUD9HwC&printsec=f...
  - rsheridan6 16y ago
    Are inflamed, bleeding gums really poorly perfused?

hugh3 16y ago

Your genes sure as hell didn't evolve to make you immortal, either. They evolved in the hopes that you'll live long enough to make a few new copies of them, and engineering the vital parts of the body to last significantly longer wasn't a high priority. I'd be disinclined to throw out the huge volume of research on the subject of what actually causes heart disease and cancer due to a pithy slogan.

InclinedPlane 16y ago

Death is an evolved trait. It's an advantage for most organisms because it ensures a steady turnover of populations which enables micro and macro evolution at a reasonable pace in response to environmental, climate, et al changes.

powrtoch 16y ago
Sounds like the bad kind of group selectionism hypothesis to me. Death bestows no fitness benefit to the individual, and is therefore not evolutionarily selected for. Organisms don't die because evolution says they should, they die because evolution doesn't care.
- skybrian 16y ago
  It's more active than that. A trait that enhances reproduction and reduces longevity will be selected for, so whenever there are engineering tradeoffs between reproduction and longevity, evolution will select in favor of reproduction.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    Odd then that the most advanced species have the longest gestation periods and the simplest species have the shortest.
    - eru 16y ago
      That's because there's no advanced and simple in evolution.
      - loewenskind 16y ago
        My point was that the parents comment was completely unfounded. Did humans always have super fast gestation periods and then right before we gained intelligence it suddenly took the better part of a year and produced a child that isn't self sufficient for at least a decade? When the evolution subject comes up it always seems to inspire a bunch of would-be scifi writers to come out and explain "how it all works" based on, as near as I can tell, pure fantasy.

rsheridan6 16y ago

Cochran collaborator Paul Ewald (they wrote an article hypothesizing that homosexuality is also caused by a pathogen) wrote a book about that subject 10 years ago. This article reminded me about that too, probably because it mentioned the same researcher: http://books.google.com/books?id=HlmxmE6TMCwC&lpg=PP1&ots=PGCP7rY0O0&dq=plague%20time%20paul%20ewald&pg=PA156#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=HlmxmE6TMCwC&lpg=PP1&#3...