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It wouldn't be "upscale espresso" if the machine didn't cost 10,000$. If you look into the audiophile community, there are people that have gone crazy spending

It wouldn't be "upscale espresso" if the machine didn't cost 10,000$. If you look into the audiophile community, there are people that have gone crazy spending absurd amounts of money on equipment that's basically a placebo. It fails on blind tests all the time. I bet it's the same with this coffee.

PascLeRasc 8y ago
Do you have any hobbies?
- gridlockd 8y ago
  I do, actually. Luckily, none of them involve spending thousands of dollars on ultra-premium equipment whose advantages are completely imaginary. I understand how an espresso machine works. If somebody is charging you five figures for one, they're trying to pull a fast one.
  - throwawaymath 8y ago
    Really? Why are the espresso machines used in coffee shops so expensive then?
    - gridlockd 8y ago
      If ground-up rhino horn isn't actually a working aphrodisiac, how come these animals are being hunted towards extinction in parts of Asia? Same answer: People are desperate to be fooled.
  - Luc 8y ago
    I have the impression you have been viewing this from a consumer point of view. These are not for your kitchen, they are machines for commercial use. Even the fully manual ones easily cost mid-thousands.
    - gridlockd 8y ago
      I understand how they can cost that much. They're made in small numbers, by some artisans in Italy, presumably with the best of materials and to the highest standard. You can put an arbitrary amount of effort into anything. The question is, is the end result coming out of that machine measurably better than what comes out of a no-frills machine? My bet is that it isn't.
      - kthejoker2 8y ago
        But if it can produce it faster, more reliably, in greater volumes, and with industrial grade parts to extend its useful life ...? It's not just the coffee that's "the end result."
  - PascLeRasc 8y ago
    You should start making and selling espresso machines then, since you know more than coffee professionals about them. Same with high-end audio gear. Do you also go to museums and say "I could have done that" to every painting?
    - gridlockd 8y ago
      > You should start making and selling espresso machines then, since you know more than coffee professionals about them. That doesn't really follow. If I think five-figure coffee makers that perform a rather simple mechanical function are overpriced, I should start selling them myself? > Same with high-end audio gear. I'm talking about equipment whose qualities cannot be measured nor perceived in a double-blind study. Pure make-belief: "Audiophile publications frequently describe differences in quality which are not detected by standard audio system measurements and double blind testing, claiming that they perceive differences in audio quality which cannot be measured by current instrumentation,[26] and cannot be detected by listeners if listening conditions are controlled,[27] but without providing an explanation for those claims." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile#Controversies > Do you also go to museums and say "I could have done that" to every painting? No, I've got better things to do. Having said that, modern art certainly is rife with pretense.
      - omnimus 8y ago
        I think you are overlooking one important aspect with espresso machines. You can get much less expensive machine that will create same tasting cup. But only if you do few cups a day not few hundreds. They are expensive because they are heavy duty, they perform and you dont have to clean them as much because they are made with much higher precision and they last longer. This is highly valuable - you dont want you main source of income to die on you in middle of the day. In the long run price difference is well worth it.

PascLeRasc 8y ago

Do you have any hobbies?

gridlockd 8y ago
I do, actually. Luckily, none of them involve spending thousands of dollars on ultra-premium equipment whose advantages are completely imaginary. I understand how an espresso machine works. If somebody is charging you five figures for one, they're trying to pull a fast one.
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  Really? Why are the espresso machines used in coffee shops so expensive then?
  - gridlockd 8y ago
    If ground-up rhino horn isn't actually a working aphrodisiac, how come these animals are being hunted towards extinction in parts of Asia? Same answer: People are desperate to be fooled.
- Luc 8y ago
  I have the impression you have been viewing this from a consumer point of view. These are not for your kitchen, they are machines for commercial use. Even the fully manual ones easily cost mid-thousands.
  - gridlockd 8y ago
    I understand how they can cost that much. They're made in small numbers, by some artisans in Italy, presumably with the best of materials and to the highest standard. You can put an arbitrary amount of effort into anything. The question is, is the end result coming out of that machine measurably better than what comes out of a no-frills machine? My bet is that it isn't.
    - kthejoker2 8y ago
      But if it can produce it faster, more reliably, in greater volumes, and with industrial grade parts to extend its useful life ...? It's not just the coffee that's "the end result."
- PascLeRasc 8y ago
  You should start making and selling espresso machines then, since you know more than coffee professionals about them. Same with high-end audio gear. Do you also go to museums and say "I could have done that" to every painting?
  - gridlockd 8y ago
    > You should start making and selling espresso machines then, since you know more than coffee professionals about them. That doesn't really follow. If I think five-figure coffee makers that perform a rather simple mechanical function are overpriced, I should start selling them myself? > Same with high-end audio gear. I'm talking about equipment whose qualities cannot be measured nor perceived in a double-blind study. Pure make-belief: "Audiophile publications frequently describe differences in quality which are not detected by standard audio system measurements and double blind testing, claiming that they perceive differences in audio quality which cannot be measured by current instrumentation,[26] and cannot be detected by listeners if listening conditions are controlled,[27] but without providing an explanation for those claims." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile#Controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile#Controversies > Do you also go to museums and say "I could have done that" to every painting? No, I've got better things to do. Having said that, modern art certainly is rife with pretense.
    - omnimus 8y ago
      I think you are overlooking one important aspect with espresso machines. You can get much less expensive machine that will create same tasting cup. But only if you do few cups a day not few hundreds. They are expensive because they are heavy duty, they perform and you dont have to clean them as much because they are made with much higher precision and they last longer. This is highly valuable - you dont want you main source of income to die on you in middle of the day. In the long run price difference is well worth it.