7 ms·

Yeah espresso machines are nuts. How has YC not yet funded a coffee machine startup to "democratize" upscale espresso?

gjjones125 8y ago
I think that already exists in the form of Nespresso. I have one in my kitchen and I prefer it to what I get at a coffee place minus the experience.
hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
Kickstarter is a graveyard of many overhyped and then under-delivered (or non-delivered) espresso machines. The problem is that Nespresso already exists, and is good for 95% of the market. The rest of the 5% of espresso aficionados demand tons of features that are not cheap to produce, and the market is inherently not that big. There are machines like https://decentespresso.com/overview https://decentespresso.com/overview (I believe they picked up the IP of an infamously undelivered Kickstarter) and https://www.breville.com/us/en/products/espresso/bes980.html https://www.breville.com/us/en/products/espresso/bes980.html
- crispyambulance 8y ago
  Yeah, they did pick up the IP of one of the most disastrous kick-starters ever. It seems plausible, you know, that someone could make a machine like that, but at the end of the day it's all about the espresso head and quality of the build. By the time they figured it out, I think, they were no better than well-established prosumer models in price and performance.
gridlockd 8y ago
It wouldn't be "upscale espresso" if the machine didn't cost 10,000$. If you look into the audiophile community, there are people that have gone crazy spending absurd amounts of money on equipment that's basically a placebo. It fails on blind tests all the time. I bet it's the same with this coffee.
- PascLeRasc 8y ago
  Do you have any hobbies?
  - gridlockd 8y ago
    I do, actually. Luckily, none of them involve spending thousands of dollars on ultra-premium equipment whose advantages are completely imaginary. I understand how an espresso machine works. If somebody is charging you five figures for one, they're trying to pull a fast one.
    - throwawaymath 8y ago
      Really? Why are the espresso machines used in coffee shops so expensive then?
      - gridlockd 8y ago
        If ground-up rhino horn isn't actually a working aphrodisiac, how come these animals are being hunted towards extinction in parts of Asia? Same answer: People are desperate to be fooled.
    - Luc 8y ago
      I have the impression you have been viewing this from a consumer point of view. These are not for your kitchen, they are machines for commercial use. Even the fully manual ones easily cost mid-thousands.
      - gridlockd 8y ago
        I understand how they can cost that much. They're made in small numbers, by some artisans in Italy, presumably with the best of materials and to the highest standard. You can put an arbitrary amount of effort into anything. The question is, is the end result coming out of that machine measurably better than what comes out of a no-frills machine? My bet is that it isn't.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ginko 8y ago
The lower end of automatic espresso machines is quite affordable. You can buy a new DeLonghi Magnifica ESAM 4200 for under 300€ and with the right settings and good beans that'll make better coffee than you can get at Starbucks.
- omnimus 8y ago
  Better coffee than at Starbucks is extremely low bar. Any espresso machine with good quality beans will do better than starbucks because they use low grade beans (and mostly roasted to death). Unless US starbucks is somehow very differen from the european one.
PascLeRasc 8y ago
You might enjoy this article about "the Keurig model" for hardware startups [1]. I'd be surprised if Blue Bottle isn't tinkering with their own less wasteful version of a Nespresso. They have the perfect branding and reputation already for this kind of thing. [1] https://medium.com/@BenEinstein/keurig-accidentally-created-the-perfect-business-model-for-hardware-startups-18e9c3b4e796 https://medium.com/@BenEinstein/keurig-accidentally-created-...
eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
You don't need to spend thousands of dollars to get a solid espresso machine for your home. I have a $400 Breville machine and it does everything I need. Most people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between my results and a coffee shop, except the latte art, mine isn't very good :) When you start getting into the $1000+ range, it seems like you're mostly paying for the following: 1) more precise temperature control (PID control) This is becoming less of an issue because the heat exchange systems on consumer devices are becoming a lot better. My machine is ready to go in under a minute, although they recommend you wait about 20 minutes for it to warm up. Some of the higher-end machines with a dual boiler even recommend a 45-minute warm-up time, though. 2) ability to steam milk and pull shots at the same time (double boiler) This seems to be a big differentiator because then the dual boiler comes into play (dedicated boiler for espresso, dedicated boiler for steam wand). On my device, I simply pull my shot, then steam my milk after. This all happens in under 1.5 minutes. I simply don't need to do them at the same time, but I can understand why you would want this feature in a commercial machine where you need to be moving fast and serving a lot of customers at a business. 3) milk steamer is often quicker on $1000 machines (a few seconds instead of ~15-30 like on mine) Again, we are talking about maybe 15 seconds of time saving here. 4) water-line hookup so you don't need to refill a water tank My machine has a water tank, but I only need to refill it every two or three days. I usually have two or three double espressos each day, one or two of those are lattes. So the water hook-up is of no use to me. 5) fancy styling / italian design & looks I think my machine has decent styling, but it doesn't look nearly as high quality as something like the Rocket machines: https://rocket-espresso.com/ https://rocket-espresso.com/. I researched this heavily before buying, and watched a lot of videos here: https://www.youtube.com/user/SeattleCoffeeGear https://www.youtube.com/user/SeattleCoffeeGear. I was very close to buying a Rocket machine and it would have set me back well over $1000. Anyway, that youtube channel sometimes does blind taste tests between hundred dollar machines and ones in the thousands of dollars. They often cannot tell the difference. This is a great one: $300 vs $3000 machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuIOlsdDg_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuIOlsdDg_o

I think that already exists in the form of Nespresso. I have one in my kitchen and I prefer it to what I get at a coffee place minus the experience.

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago

Kickstarter is a graveyard of many overhyped and then under-delivered (or non-delivered) espresso machines. The problem is that Nespresso already exists, and is good for 95% of the market. The rest of the 5% of espresso aficionados demand tons of features that are not cheap to produce, and the market is inherently not that big. There are machines like https://decentespresso.com/overview https://decentespresso.com/overview (I believe they picked up the IP of an infamously undelivered Kickstarter) and https://www.breville.com/us/en/products/espresso/bes980.html https://www.breville.com/us/en/products/espresso/bes980.html

crispyambulance 8y ago
Yeah, they did pick up the IP of one of the most disastrous kick-starters ever. It seems plausible, you know, that someone could make a machine like that, but at the end of the day it's all about the espresso head and quality of the build. By the time they figured it out, I think, they were no better than well-established prosumer models in price and performance.

gridlockd 8y ago

It wouldn't be "upscale espresso" if the machine didn't cost 10,000$. If you look into the audiophile community, there are people that have gone crazy spending absurd amounts of money on equipment that's basically a placebo. It fails on blind tests all the time. I bet it's the same with this coffee.

PascLeRasc 8y ago
Do you have any hobbies?
- gridlockd 8y ago
  I do, actually. Luckily, none of them involve spending thousands of dollars on ultra-premium equipment whose advantages are completely imaginary. I understand how an espresso machine works. If somebody is charging you five figures for one, they're trying to pull a fast one.
  - throwawaymath 8y ago
    Really? Why are the espresso machines used in coffee shops so expensive then?
    - gridlockd 8y ago
      If ground-up rhino horn isn't actually a working aphrodisiac, how come these animals are being hunted towards extinction in parts of Asia? Same answer: People are desperate to be fooled.
  - Luc 8y ago
    I have the impression you have been viewing this from a consumer point of view. These are not for your kitchen, they are machines for commercial use. Even the fully manual ones easily cost mid-thousands.
    - gridlockd 8y ago
      I understand how they can cost that much. They're made in small numbers, by some artisans in Italy, presumably with the best of materials and to the highest standard. You can put an arbitrary amount of effort into anything. The question is, is the end result coming out of that machine measurably better than what comes out of a no-frills machine? My bet is that it isn't.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ginko 8y ago

The lower end of automatic espresso machines is quite affordable. You can buy a new DeLonghi Magnifica ESAM 4200 for under 300€ and with the right settings and good beans that'll make better coffee than you can get at Starbucks.

omnimus 8y ago
Better coffee than at Starbucks is extremely low bar. Any espresso machine with good quality beans will do better than starbucks because they use low grade beans (and mostly roasted to death). Unless US starbucks is somehow very differen from the european one.

PascLeRasc 8y ago

You might enjoy this article about "the Keurig model" for hardware startups [1]. I'd be surprised if Blue Bottle isn't tinkering with their own less wasteful version of a Nespresso. They have the perfect branding and reputation already for this kind of thing. [1] https://medium.com/@BenEinstein/keurig-accidentally-created-the-perfect-business-model-for-hardware-startups-18e9c3b4e796 https://medium.com/@BenEinstein/keurig-accidentally-created-...

eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago

You don't need to spend thousands of dollars to get a solid espresso machine for your home. I have a $400 Breville machine and it does everything I need. Most people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between my results and a coffee shop, except the latte art, mine isn't very good :) When you start getting into the $1000+ range, it seems like you're mostly paying for the following: 1) more precise temperature control (PID control) This is becoming less of an issue because the heat exchange systems on consumer devices are becoming a lot better. My machine is ready to go in under a minute, although they recommend you wait about 20 minutes for it to warm up. Some of the higher-end machines with a dual boiler even recommend a 45-minute warm-up time, though. 2) ability to steam milk and pull shots at the same time (double boiler) This seems to be a big differentiator because then the dual boiler comes into play (dedicated boiler for espresso, dedicated boiler for steam wand). On my device, I simply pull my shot, then steam my milk after. This all happens in under 1.5 minutes. I simply don't need to do them at the same time, but I can understand why you would want this feature in a commercial machine where you need to be moving fast and serving a lot of customers at a business. 3) milk steamer is often quicker on $1000 machines (a few seconds instead of ~15-30 like on mine) Again, we are talking about maybe 15 seconds of time saving here. 4) water-line hookup so you don't need to refill a water tank My machine has a water tank, but I only need to refill it every two or three days. I usually have two or three double espressos each day, one or two of those are lattes. So the water hook-up is of no use to me. 5) fancy styling / italian design & looks I think my machine has decent styling, but it doesn't look nearly as high quality as something like the Rocket machines: https://rocket-espresso.com/ https://rocket-espresso.com/. I researched this heavily before buying, and watched a lot of videos here: https://www.youtube.com/user/SeattleCoffeeGear https://www.youtube.com/user/SeattleCoffeeGear. I was very close to buying a Rocket machine and it would have set me back well over $1000. Anyway, that youtube channel sometimes does blind taste tests between hundred dollar machines and ones in the thousands of dollars. They often cannot tell the difference. This is a great one: $300 vs $3000 machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuIOlsdDg_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuIOlsdDg_o