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>but even greater would be to put Facebook's exces behind bars. What is with this place wanting to throw everyone in prison? Is there some thrill you get from

>but even greater would be to put Facebook's exces behind bars. What is with this place wanting to throw everyone in prison? Is there some thrill you get from seeing executives in an orange jumper? Fines can be far more beneficial to society. Make them pay in a way that actually helps other people.

tapoxi 8y ago
Because fines are rarely proportional to income, and are frequently written off as the cost of doing business.
kareemsabri 8y ago
schadenfreude
dfxm12 8y ago
Fines can be far more beneficial to society. It's not an either/or. You can be sentenced with both a fine and jail time. Plus, I feel like the goal here should be stopping illegal activity (should this investigation find something, of course), and I think jail time would be more of a deterrent than a fine. Plus, we already have a system in place for corporations to benefit society from the earnings society lets them make: taxes.
saiya-jin 8y ago
> Fines can be far more beneficial to society. Make them pay in a way that actually helps other people. Yes and no. If the only motivation for breaking the law is that your employer might potentially get a questionable fine in distant future, many of those sociopaths couldn't care less and cash in bonuses next year. Nobody of those folks plans their corporate careers in a 'I will build my position in this company steadily over next 5-10 years', they jump ships often if better offer comes along. Yes some stay, but they are rather an exception. Not all execs are hardcore sociopaths, but again they are exceptions. Now if we would include massive personal fines and appropriate jail time (which can be huge if you do some big fraud in person and not as part of some massive corporate hierarchy), that would affect some of those decisions. Not all, but it would definitely be a net gain for mankind.
ryandrake 8y ago
Fines simplify criminal behavior down to a "business decision." Is the extra revenue to be made minus the fine still profitable? If so, it makes sense to break the law. Often it is, because fines don't tend to scale with the size of the company they're levied against. Start putting executives in jail, and behavior will actually change. Isn't that the desired goal?
unimpressive 8y ago
People are exasperated with bad actors being allowed to set the common trust on fire with gasoline. For example, if this story were about a smaller dev they would probably be prosecuted for credit card fraud: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18995823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18995823. Fines so far have not caused that to stop, so now the mob is asking for blood. Try to take it as an indicator of how desperate and frustrated people are, rather than a fetish.
hackinthebochs 8y ago
Moral indignation is the new chic
- ionised 8y ago
  Better to just let people get away with whatever they want, right? I mean, as long as the crime made a lot of money, it can't really be a crime, surely?
  - hackinthebochs 8y ago
    It's better to be rational about creating the right incentives to prevent socially damaging behavior rather than stoking moral indignation disconnected from any semblance of benefit to society. How the left became the torch-bearers for unreflective moral indignation and retributivism is beyond me.
    - gnud 8y ago
      I think it's not only moral indignation. It's a feeling that fines are not working. Since fines are not working, maybe prison would. If you make the fine large enough to actually matter, it would probably affect people working at the company who had nothing to do with the illegal activity. So maybe you should figure out who said 'OK' to the stuff, and who implemented it, and then put them in prison. Maybe then other companies won't do similar things. I don't know if it would work, but the sentiment doesn't necessarily come from moral indignation or "retributivism".
      - hackinthebochs 8y ago
        There's plenty of glee in this thread at the prospect of MZ facing jail time. That's the retributivism I'm referring to. As far as fines being incentives, if the fine is large enough it will work. Make it so shareholders feel the pain and the board will hold the executives accountable. Then you'll get the necessary feedback to curb these actions.
    - AlexandrB 8y ago
ionised 8y ago
Fines are absorbed as a cost of doing business and are not a disincentive. Jail. Jail for a looooong time. Only in negatively and significantly affecting the life or lives of those responsible will there be adequate justice. Better question is, what is it with HN and rallying to the defense of unethical and illegal business practices?
zaccus 8y ago
>Is there some thrill you get from seeing executives in an orange jumper? Criminals. The word you're looking for is criminals. And yes, most people like seeing criminals in an orange jumper.
tejtm 8y ago
I think it comes down to real versus symbolic consequences and anthropomorphising non persons (Here, person in common language is constrained to individual Homo sapiens NCBITaxon:9606) The non corporeal entity in question can not be put in an orange jumpsuit and the fine if large enough could have an actual impact. However a number on a ledger does nothing to satisfy a human perception of justice served. To me the answer is; do both.
rchaud 8y ago
People convicted of insider trading get prison sentences. Was theirs a violent crime? No. Did they cause a recession, harming thousands of people? No. They're sent to prison because it has a deterrent effect, in an industry where insider trading is easily accomplished by also hard to prove in court. Same goes here. The public has no ability to audit FB's data collection and sharing practices. We simply have to take their word for it when they announce a new "privacy-focused Facebook". If prosecutors can find a criminal charge that sticks, any conviction should lead to jail time.
mabn 8y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiyfwZVAzGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiyfwZVAzGw
rajaganesh87 8y ago
>Fines can be far more beneficial to society. Make them pay in a way that actually helps other people. How exactly?

tapoxi 8y ago

Because fines are rarely proportional to income, and are frequently written off as the cost of doing business.

kareemsabri 8y ago

schadenfreude

dfxm12 8y ago

Fines can be far more beneficial to society. It's not an either/or. You can be sentenced with both a fine and jail time. Plus, I feel like the goal here should be stopping illegal activity (should this investigation find something, of course), and I think jail time would be more of a deterrent than a fine. Plus, we already have a system in place for corporations to benefit society from the earnings society lets them make: taxes.

saiya-jin 8y ago

> Fines can be far more beneficial to society. Make them pay in a way that actually helps other people. Yes and no. If the only motivation for breaking the law is that your employer might potentially get a questionable fine in distant future, many of those sociopaths couldn't care less and cash in bonuses next year. Nobody of those folks plans their corporate careers in a 'I will build my position in this company steadily over next 5-10 years', they jump ships often if better offer comes along. Yes some stay, but they are rather an exception. Not all execs are hardcore sociopaths, but again they are exceptions. Now if we would include massive personal fines and appropriate jail time (which can be huge if you do some big fraud in person and not as part of some massive corporate hierarchy), that would affect some of those decisions. Not all, but it would definitely be a net gain for mankind.

ryandrake 8y ago

Fines simplify criminal behavior down to a "business decision." Is the extra revenue to be made minus the fine still profitable? If so, it makes sense to break the law. Often it is, because fines don't tend to scale with the size of the company they're levied against. Start putting executives in jail, and behavior will actually change. Isn't that the desired goal?

unimpressive 8y ago

People are exasperated with bad actors being allowed to set the common trust on fire with gasoline. For example, if this story were about a smaller dev they would probably be prosecuted for credit card fraud: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18995823 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18995823. Fines so far have not caused that to stop, so now the mob is asking for blood. Try to take it as an indicator of how desperate and frustrated people are, rather than a fetish.

hackinthebochs 8y ago

Moral indignation is the new chic

ionised 8y ago
Better to just let people get away with whatever they want, right? I mean, as long as the crime made a lot of money, it can't really be a crime, surely?
- hackinthebochs 8y ago
  It's better to be rational about creating the right incentives to prevent socially damaging behavior rather than stoking moral indignation disconnected from any semblance of benefit to society. How the left became the torch-bearers for unreflective moral indignation and retributivism is beyond me.
  - gnud 8y ago
    I think it's not only moral indignation. It's a feeling that fines are not working. Since fines are not working, maybe prison would. If you make the fine large enough to actually matter, it would probably affect people working at the company who had nothing to do with the illegal activity. So maybe you should figure out who said 'OK' to the stuff, and who implemented it, and then put them in prison. Maybe then other companies won't do similar things. I don't know if it would work, but the sentiment doesn't necessarily come from moral indignation or "retributivism".
    - hackinthebochs 8y ago
      There's plenty of glee in this thread at the prospect of MZ facing jail time. That's the retributivism I'm referring to. As far as fines being incentives, if the fine is large enough it will work. Make it so shareholders feel the pain and the board will hold the executives accountable. Then you'll get the necessary feedback to curb these actions.
  - AlexandrB 8y ago

ionised 8y ago

Fines are absorbed as a cost of doing business and are not a disincentive. Jail. Jail for a looooong time. Only in negatively and significantly affecting the life or lives of those responsible will there be adequate justice. Better question is, what is it with HN and rallying to the defense of unethical and illegal business practices?

zaccus 8y ago

>Is there some thrill you get from seeing executives in an orange jumper? Criminals. The word you're looking for is criminals. And yes, most people like seeing criminals in an orange jumper.

tejtm 8y ago

I think it comes down to real versus symbolic consequences and anthropomorphising non persons (Here, person in common language is constrained to individual Homo sapiens NCBITaxon:9606) The non corporeal entity in question can not be put in an orange jumpsuit and the fine if large enough could have an actual impact. However a number on a ledger does nothing to satisfy a human perception of justice served. To me the answer is; do both.

rchaud 8y ago

People convicted of insider trading get prison sentences. Was theirs a violent crime? No. Did they cause a recession, harming thousands of people? No. They're sent to prison because it has a deterrent effect, in an industry where insider trading is easily accomplished by also hard to prove in court. Same goes here. The public has no ability to audit FB's data collection and sharing practices. We simply have to take their word for it when they announce a new "privacy-focused Facebook". If prosecutors can find a criminal charge that sticks, any conviction should lead to jail time.

mabn 8y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiyfwZVAzGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiyfwZVAzGw

rajaganesh87 8y ago

>Fines can be far more beneficial to society. Make them pay in a way that actually helps other people. How exactly?