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i agree with the other comments that this "robot" is mostly a gimmick. but it really pains me to only see headlines like "automation is killing jobs" from the

by kmlx 8y ago

i agree with the other comments that this "robot" is mostly a gimmick. but it really pains me to only see headlines like "automation is killing jobs" from the west. meanwhile in japan they have a long tradition of replacing jobs with robots. their society is very happy about it, which lead to massive industries focusing mainly/only on automation. so my multi-part question is: why is the west scared of automation? does it have to do with a lack of knowledge, or is it because of a different attitude towards jobs than in japan? why does it seem like western societies care more about truck drivers and baristas than providing better jobs?

paganel 8y ago
From half the world away the Japanese society looks anything but “happy” to me: long working hours for those that do manage to get a stable job, women still seen as housewives first, higher proportion of suicides compared to the rest of the world etc.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  Suicide rates in Japan aren't much higher than the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
- kmlx 8y ago
  i was referring to their attitude towards automation, not how happy they are in general. all societies have issues.
louhike 8y ago
"different attitude towards jobs than in japan" => Yes. In Japan, a company will keep you, even if you don't add much value. You have to have a job. There is a strong relationship between you and your company. You have to dedicate yourself upthere but the company will take care of you. My explanation is probably not completely accurate (non-native english speaker so it's hard for me to get to the point), but it's important to understand the difference in culture.
ForHackernews 8y ago
Japan's population is crashing, so they need robots to take over jobs where there are no longer people to do those jobs. Because of immigration, the United States' population is rising and the economy is unable to provide sufficient stable well-paying jobs for all those who would like them.
- kmlx 8y ago
  i agree with you that automation is needed more today than in any other point in the history of Japan due to population constraints. but Japan's automation efforts started half a century ago: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0166497294901015 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0166497294...
locklock 8y ago
at this point in time you need a job to pay rent and buy food (and, if you're american, have a chance at decent health insurance). for coders it's easy to find a job, for people without such "in-demand" skills maybe not so much. so any retail or food service job replaced by a robot means one fewer job for someone who might need it. in a just world that would be great, the whole point of doing work should be so that we have to do less work, but that's not how society is structured now. an american barista who loses their job to a robot has more or less no safety net at this point. the only benefit in this story is more profit for whoever no longer has to pay a human when they can pay a robot less for the same job
ivanbakel 8y ago
Because truck drivers and baristas have perfectly good reasons to oppose automation in their lines of work. The economic model of the West is vested in self-interest, and this is its natural outcome. If you - want to have a job - don't want to pay to retrain - don't want to become unemployed (and then have to compete for another job) you will oppose automation. Automation is pushed from the top down - the people at the bottom certainly don't want it without a strong guarantee that they're going to be better off for it, and not in some hand-wavey "social progress" way.
michaelt 8y ago
I've read a number of theories, some better than others: 1. Japan has an ageing population [1] which means a declining working population. That means job losses don't convert into increased unemployment. 2. Some say Japan relatively prefers robots to immigrants [2] due to "traditional xenophobia". 3. Some people think [3,4] it's due to indigenous religions; that the Christian tradition says only God can create life and any human with the hubris to play god will inevitably be punished, possibly at the hands of their own creation; whereas Shinto says there are hidden spirits in things like trees, rocks, rivers, mountains and so on. 4. Or maybe it's just because their media is full of heroic friendly robots and cyborgs. Of course, the business value of strapping a robot arm to a bean-to-cup coffee vending machine is another matter... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan [2] https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/japan-prefers-robot-bears-to-foreign-nurses/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/japan-prefers-robot-bea... [3] https://www.technologyreview.com/s/421187/why-japanese-love-robots-and-americans-fear-them/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/421187/why-japanese-love-... [4] https://www.wired.com/story/ideas-joi-ito-robot-overlords/ https://www.wired.com/story/ideas-joi-ito-robot-overlords/
johnnycab 8y ago
Restaurant chain executives have argued that automation is providing a necessary solution as they struggle to fill positions and convince workers to stay. It is not a gimmick, from the POV of a business looking to cut labour costs, as alluded to in the article. However, it is disingenuous on their part to suggest that they are forced towards automation due to government policies or worker apathy. The real reasons might be that a robot (arm) is not subject to any employment rights, does not need breaks, goes off sick, refuses to work extra hours, requires various other perks like holidays, paternity/maternity leave, no promotion - unless it is a firmware upgrade etc. Uber would bite that arm off, if they could remove the 'labour' element tomorrow, as they frequently clash with unions and governments around the world. Nonetheless, they are already moving towards the goal of autonomous vehicles. I can only speculate, Japan has had a traditional job-for-life ethos, removing any anxiety. It also has a different set of socio-economic issues to deal with. One of them would be an ageing population, low influx of immigrant workers - which might cement the robot culture even more.
dfxm12 8y ago
why is the west scared of automation? I can't speak for "the west", but in the US, very important things are tied to employment like health insurance & retirement benefits and others. So, if a robot takes your job, then you (or even your kids) are on average likely to be one medical emergency away from bankruptcy.

by kmlx 8y ago

paganel 8y ago

From half the world away the Japanese society looks anything but “happy” to me: long working hours for those that do manage to get a stable job, women still seen as housewives first, higher proportion of suicides compared to the rest of the world etc.

tonyedgecombe 8y ago
Suicide rates in Japan aren't much higher than the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
kmlx 8y ago
i was referring to their attitude towards automation, not how happy they are in general. all societies have issues.

louhike 8y ago

"different attitude towards jobs than in japan" => Yes. In Japan, a company will keep you, even if you don't add much value. You have to have a job. There is a strong relationship between you and your company. You have to dedicate yourself upthere but the company will take care of you. My explanation is probably not completely accurate (non-native english speaker so it's hard for me to get to the point), but it's important to understand the difference in culture.

ForHackernews 8y ago

Japan's population is crashing, so they need robots to take over jobs where there are no longer people to do those jobs. Because of immigration, the United States' population is rising and the economy is unable to provide sufficient stable well-paying jobs for all those who would like them.

kmlx 8y ago
i agree with you that automation is needed more today than in any other point in the history of Japan due to population constraints. but Japan's automation efforts started half a century ago: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0166497294901015 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0166497294...

locklock 8y ago

at this point in time you need a job to pay rent and buy food (and, if you're american, have a chance at decent health insurance). for coders it's easy to find a job, for people without such "in-demand" skills maybe not so much. so any retail or food service job replaced by a robot means one fewer job for someone who might need it. in a just world that would be great, the whole point of doing work should be so that we have to do less work, but that's not how society is structured now. an american barista who loses their job to a robot has more or less no safety net at this point. the only benefit in this story is more profit for whoever no longer has to pay a human when they can pay a robot less for the same job

ivanbakel 8y ago

Because truck drivers and baristas have perfectly good reasons to oppose automation in their lines of work. The economic model of the West is vested in self-interest, and this is its natural outcome. If you - want to have a job - don't want to pay to retrain - don't want to become unemployed (and then have to compete for another job) you will oppose automation. Automation is pushed from the top down - the people at the bottom certainly don't want it without a strong guarantee that they're going to be better off for it, and not in some hand-wavey "social progress" way.

michaelt 8y ago

I've read a number of theories, some better than others: 1. Japan has an ageing population [1] which means a declining working population. That means job losses don't convert into increased unemployment. 2. Some say Japan relatively prefers robots to immigrants [2] due to "traditional xenophobia". 3. Some people think [3,4] it's due to indigenous religions; that the Christian tradition says only God can create life and any human with the hubris to play god will inevitably be punished, possibly at the hands of their own creation; whereas Shinto says there are hidden spirits in things like trees, rocks, rivers, mountains and so on. 4. Or maybe it's just because their media is full of heroic friendly robots and cyborgs. Of course, the business value of strapping a robot arm to a bean-to-cup coffee vending machine is another matter... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan [2] https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/japan-prefers-robot-bears-to-foreign-nurses/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/japan-prefers-robot-bea... [3] https://www.technologyreview.com/s/421187/why-japanese-love-robots-and-americans-fear-them/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/421187/why-japanese-love-... [4] https://www.wired.com/story/ideas-joi-ito-robot-overlords/ https://www.wired.com/story/ideas-joi-ito-robot-overlords/

johnnycab 8y ago

Restaurant chain executives have argued that automation is providing a necessary solution as they struggle to fill positions and convince workers to stay. It is not a gimmick, from the POV of a business looking to cut labour costs, as alluded to in the article. However, it is disingenuous on their part to suggest that they are forced towards automation due to government policies or worker apathy. The real reasons might be that a robot (arm) is not subject to any employment rights, does not need breaks, goes off sick, refuses to work extra hours, requires various other perks like holidays, paternity/maternity leave, no promotion - unless it is a firmware upgrade etc. Uber would bite that arm off, if they could remove the 'labour' element tomorrow, as they frequently clash with unions and governments around the world. Nonetheless, they are already moving towards the goal of autonomous vehicles. I can only speculate, Japan has had a traditional job-for-life ethos, removing any anxiety. It also has a different set of socio-economic issues to deal with. One of them would be an ageing population, low influx of immigrant workers - which might cement the robot culture even more.

dfxm12 8y ago

why is the west scared of automation? I can't speak for "the west", but in the US, very important things are tied to employment like health insurance & retirement benefits and others. So, if a robot takes your job, then you (or even your kids) are on average likely to be one medical emergency away from bankruptcy.