3 ms·

People have a lot of valid concerns about using a technology owned by Oracle, and the 2000s ended up leaving a bad taste in people’s mouths from the amount of e

People have a lot of valid concerns about using a technology owned by Oracle, and the 2000s ended up leaving a bad taste in people’s mouths from the amount of enterprise shilling that went into Java. Now Java is showing it’s age and cross compiling is no longer the problem it once was.

geezerjay 8y ago
None of your arguments were objective or technical, and you've missed the fact that the Java is by far the standard in backend development and more importantly is taught in universities. Honestly, the only ads I see for Go developers are for blockchain projects, which suggest buzzword-driven development.
- ilovecaching 8y ago
  There are no objective arguments when it comes to programming languages. If people like Brendan Gregg say that benchmarking is difficult and error prone, we don’t stand a chance. What we do know is that Kubernetes, Docker, Terrafofm, Prometheus, Caddy, et al. have taken off in part because Go is easily accesible and can scale. Go has risen metorically to the top just like Java did, and there are lots of really huge deployments of Go out there. The JVM will always have certain limitations and require it’s users to specialize in JVM tuning and architecture. Many users are also hesitant to support a company like Oracle, and the enterprise shilling that comes with the Java ecosystem.
  - blub 8y ago
    Things that are difficult and error prone are often worthwhile. Probably why Brendan Gregg has built a career in performance engineering, instead of giving up and say, complaining on HN how hard life is. And in fact performance itself is a very objective criteria. Either a piece of software is fast enough or it isn't. This doesn't refer only to percieved performance, but also hard performance indicators established in the requirements of a project. Sw dev 101 really. Furthermore, languages and their implementations can be assigned to different performance personalities, from very fast (e.g C) to slow (e.g. Ruby). Go doesn't belong in the very fast bucket, it's one level below, hanging out with Java, C# and others. The arguments regarding Oracle are frankly worthless, but if you want to go there, at least Oracle admit they're evil and restrict their evilness to price gouging on their products. They don't pretend to be some force of good while surveilling billions of people through devices, apps and web platforms like Google does.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Kubernetes was prototyped in Java, it only got rewritten in Go, because another team took over.
- cuddlecake 8y ago
  I think Java is taught in University and has become the Backend development standard because of historic reasons, not because of its technical qualities.
  - geezerjay 8y ago
    That's not true at all, and misses the whole collection of technical reasons Java became one of most successful anf popular platforms in history, and why it's still being adopted for other applications and platforms, including those controlled by Go's main proponent: Google. It might be trendy or fashionable to poopoo on Java, but that criticism isn't driven by technical arguments.
    - cuddlecake 8y ago
      Well, there are plenty of other languages that are just as capable as Java, they just came later. I just feel like I've been lied to in University. Java was presented as the silver bullet in University. "It runs anywhere and models the real world". "In Java, you can't compare apples and oranges!". Turns out you can, if someone implements an AppleOrangeComparator. Great. I'm just venting at this point, don't mind me.
      - ilovecaching 8y ago
        Most of use learned C++, Java, or Python in school, that doesn't mean it's right or that it has to be a permanent fixture in your life.
dig1 8y ago
People are not educated enough and should start living in 2019, not 2010. Java (trademark) is owned by Oracle, but implementation is open source, backed by big names. > Now Java is showing it’s age and cross compiling is no longer the problem it once was. I see numerous flaws in this sentence. How Java is showing it's age, language wise, comparing to eg. Go? It is fully OO, has generics and recent versions with advanced functional stuff are making Java pretty modern language on (almost) Scala level. Regarding cross compiling, it is still the problem. If Go gives you 3-4 platforms out of the box, you can't say cross compiling is solved problem; try to work with MIPS or slightly less popular embedded platforms.
- simonask 8y ago
  Some people would argue that being "fully OO" is indeed a sign of age at this point. :-)
  - apta 8y ago
    Which would be ignorant, everything has its place. In any case, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSk5fdKbd3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSk5fdKbd3o

geezerjay 8y ago

None of your arguments were objective or technical, and you've missed the fact that the Java is by far the standard in backend development and more importantly is taught in universities. Honestly, the only ads I see for Go developers are for blockchain projects, which suggest buzzword-driven development.

ilovecaching 8y ago
There are no objective arguments when it comes to programming languages. If people like Brendan Gregg say that benchmarking is difficult and error prone, we don’t stand a chance. What we do know is that Kubernetes, Docker, Terrafofm, Prometheus, Caddy, et al. have taken off in part because Go is easily accesible and can scale. Go has risen metorically to the top just like Java did, and there are lots of really huge deployments of Go out there. The JVM will always have certain limitations and require it’s users to specialize in JVM tuning and architecture. Many users are also hesitant to support a company like Oracle, and the enterprise shilling that comes with the Java ecosystem.
- blub 8y ago
  Things that are difficult and error prone are often worthwhile. Probably why Brendan Gregg has built a career in performance engineering, instead of giving up and say, complaining on HN how hard life is. And in fact performance itself is a very objective criteria. Either a piece of software is fast enough or it isn't. This doesn't refer only to percieved performance, but also hard performance indicators established in the requirements of a project. Sw dev 101 really. Furthermore, languages and their implementations can be assigned to different performance personalities, from very fast (e.g C) to slow (e.g. Ruby). Go doesn't belong in the very fast bucket, it's one level below, hanging out with Java, C# and others. The arguments regarding Oracle are frankly worthless, but if you want to go there, at least Oracle admit they're evil and restrict their evilness to price gouging on their products. They don't pretend to be some force of good while surveilling billions of people through devices, apps and web platforms like Google does.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Kubernetes was prototyped in Java, it only got rewritten in Go, because another team took over.
cuddlecake 8y ago
I think Java is taught in University and has become the Backend development standard because of historic reasons, not because of its technical qualities.
- geezerjay 8y ago
  That's not true at all, and misses the whole collection of technical reasons Java became one of most successful anf popular platforms in history, and why it's still being adopted for other applications and platforms, including those controlled by Go's main proponent: Google. It might be trendy or fashionable to poopoo on Java, but that criticism isn't driven by technical arguments.
  - cuddlecake 8y ago
    Well, there are plenty of other languages that are just as capable as Java, they just came later. I just feel like I've been lied to in University. Java was presented as the silver bullet in University. "It runs anywhere and models the real world". "In Java, you can't compare apples and oranges!". Turns out you can, if someone implements an AppleOrangeComparator. Great. I'm just venting at this point, don't mind me.
    - ilovecaching 8y ago
      Most of use learned C++, Java, or Python in school, that doesn't mean it's right or that it has to be a permanent fixture in your life.

dig1 8y ago

People are not educated enough and should start living in 2019, not 2010. Java (trademark) is owned by Oracle, but implementation is open source, backed by big names. > Now Java is showing it’s age and cross compiling is no longer the problem it once was. I see numerous flaws in this sentence. How Java is showing it's age, language wise, comparing to eg. Go? It is fully OO, has generics and recent versions with advanced functional stuff are making Java pretty modern language on (almost) Scala level. Regarding cross compiling, it is still the problem. If Go gives you 3-4 platforms out of the box, you can't say cross compiling is solved problem; try to work with MIPS or slightly less popular embedded platforms.

simonask 8y ago
Some people would argue that being "fully OO" is indeed a sign of age at this point. :-)
- apta 8y ago
  Which would be ignorant, everything has its place. In any case, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSk5fdKbd3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSk5fdKbd3o