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The purpose of every job is to change the world in the way that employer wants it changed. Employers employ people for no other reason. But I don't think Fuller

The purpose of every job is to change the world in the way that employer wants it changed. Employers employ people for no other reason. But I don't think Fuller is saying all of these jobs are useless to their employers. It's more "these jobs are useless to me, to the goals that I support and understand." I think that just means that Fuller's goals aren't aligned with these employers. He wants to accomplish different things, and people trying to accomplish other things look useless to him. Reshaping the world to be closer to a given ideal may well be foolish and frequently is. But the proper judge of the usefulness of a job is the person paying for it, not a remote intellectual.

chrisco255 8y ago
They're not just useful to the employer, but useful to the customer that the employer serves. This mindset of work being above certain jobs is completely alien to me. The truth is that capitalism is less selfish than communism, because you have to negotiate and produce something that is valuable to others. We can imagine that society would be well served if we all spent time on our own hobby projects, or if we could subsidize artists to produce creative works...but what about the great bulk of hobby projects and creative works that are ultimately not valuable or desirable to society as a whole? That is to say, there's nothing wrong with pursuing hobby projects for your own sake and your own satisfaction. But doing that to the exclusion of what people need and want, and then having society subsidize that...that's wasteful and inefficient. It's part of the core reason why communism fails as an economic model. There's no such thing as a bullshit job.
benatkin 8y ago
> The purpose of every job is to change the world in the way that employer wants it changed. Change the world by polluting it more? The idea that employers' actions are motivated by changing the world is a very idealistic view of business. They may have that idea at the start but that idea gets lost very quickly when actually doing stuff. Plus people from other common professions like doctors and lawyers want to change the world. Wanting to change the world says more about youth than it does about the field of business administration.
- xyzzy123 8y ago
  I think the poster meant change in a concrete sense. As in, I’d like to change the world by having a hole dug right over there. There are various levels of work that can happen around the change. The lowest level is physical, actually digging the hole. This is usually the lowest paid. Then there’s the knowledge/expertise level. This is a step up but still pretty lowly. What shape should the hole be? How can we dig it most efficiently and what amount of dirt must be trucked away. The next layer of work is usually more highly compensated again, feelings, or the sales of holes. How do all the stakeholders feel about the hole? Will this hole help bring someone fulfilment? Do we need more PR to tamp down anti-hole protests? Could an op-ed help sway the council? The apex layer is usually politics or capital. This is where all the real money is made. Who owns the hole? How are we going to finance the hole? How is it going to increase the value of an investment, and what are the chances I can sell this hole to someone else for more money? The higher the “level” the work, the more potential for true waste there usually is. So ok there was one person digging and two people who kinda looked like they were leaning on shovels the whole time. Sure, that’s waste of a sort but to really screw up you need to aim higher. “Turns out, we spent all that money on the hole project, but gosh darn it, hole investment has cratered and nobody actually needed a hole there and we can’t sell it.”
asveikau 8y ago
Your view requires the employer to be aware of its needs, how to best accomplish the goal, and an accurate view of what the goals should be. You don't need to be a "remote intellectual" to have witnessed that this is often not the case. I would say if you've ever been employed somewhere and didn't see this, you likely weren't looking very hard. I'm reminded of when people talking about politics decry public sector waste, then I think of my own work experience and say to myself, wait a minute, they don't think private sector waste exists? Because it's quite huge, and everywhere. Perhaps in real life there is no "proper judge of the usefulness of a job", because as far as I have seen, those who confidently think they know are usually wrong. This is one reason hiring, firing, allocating bonuses, etc., is so challenging and contentious; it's all subjective, and an employee's value isn't always clear.

chrisco255 8y ago

They're not just useful to the employer, but useful to the customer that the employer serves. This mindset of work being above certain jobs is completely alien to me. The truth is that capitalism is less selfish than communism, because you have to negotiate and produce something that is valuable to others. We can imagine that society would be well served if we all spent time on our own hobby projects, or if we could subsidize artists to produce creative works...but what about the great bulk of hobby projects and creative works that are ultimately not valuable or desirable to society as a whole? That is to say, there's nothing wrong with pursuing hobby projects for your own sake and your own satisfaction. But doing that to the exclusion of what people need and want, and then having society subsidize that...that's wasteful and inefficient. It's part of the core reason why communism fails as an economic model. There's no such thing as a bullshit job.

benatkin 8y ago

> The purpose of every job is to change the world in the way that employer wants it changed. Change the world by polluting it more? The idea that employers' actions are motivated by changing the world is a very idealistic view of business. They may have that idea at the start but that idea gets lost very quickly when actually doing stuff. Plus people from other common professions like doctors and lawyers want to change the world. Wanting to change the world says more about youth than it does about the field of business administration.

xyzzy123 8y ago
I think the poster meant change in a concrete sense. As in, I’d like to change the world by having a hole dug right over there. There are various levels of work that can happen around the change. The lowest level is physical, actually digging the hole. This is usually the lowest paid. Then there’s the knowledge/expertise level. This is a step up but still pretty lowly. What shape should the hole be? How can we dig it most efficiently and what amount of dirt must be trucked away. The next layer of work is usually more highly compensated again, feelings, or the sales of holes. How do all the stakeholders feel about the hole? Will this hole help bring someone fulfilment? Do we need more PR to tamp down anti-hole protests? Could an op-ed help sway the council? The apex layer is usually politics or capital. This is where all the real money is made. Who owns the hole? How are we going to finance the hole? How is it going to increase the value of an investment, and what are the chances I can sell this hole to someone else for more money? The higher the “level” the work, the more potential for true waste there usually is. So ok there was one person digging and two people who kinda looked like they were leaning on shovels the whole time. Sure, that’s waste of a sort but to really screw up you need to aim higher. “Turns out, we spent all that money on the hole project, but gosh darn it, hole investment has cratered and nobody actually needed a hole there and we can’t sell it.”

asveikau 8y ago

Your view requires the employer to be aware of its needs, how to best accomplish the goal, and an accurate view of what the goals should be. You don't need to be a "remote intellectual" to have witnessed that this is often not the case. I would say if you've ever been employed somewhere and didn't see this, you likely weren't looking very hard. I'm reminded of when people talking about politics decry public sector waste, then I think of my own work experience and say to myself, wait a minute, they don't think private sector waste exists? Because it's quite huge, and everywhere. Perhaps in real life there is no "proper judge of the usefulness of a job", because as far as I have seen, those who confidently think they know are usually wrong. This is one reason hiring, firing, allocating bonuses, etc., is so challenging and contentious; it's all subjective, and an employee's value isn't always clear.