4 ms·

The problem with eliminating work (which we're getting pretty good at) is that we don't then have a system to support people who don't work. In order for A to

The problem with eliminating work (which we're getting pretty good at) is that we don't then have a system to support people who don't work. In order for A to not have a negative effect, you have to have B.

beat 8y ago
Why? The productivity is there. 95% of the labor input of farming has been wiped out over the past 200 years, and yet hunger is a smaller problem than it has ever been in the course of human history. The anarchist Bob Black had plenty of interesting things to say about this, but a good generalization of one of his key thoughts is that any job worth doing will have people volunteering to do it. If no one ever had to want for anything in terms of food or shelter, we'd still have firemen. We'd still have doctors. We'd still have farmers. We'd still have teachers. These are all jobs with intrinsic meaning, beyond the paycheck.
- nilskidoo 8y ago
  As with communism, or democracy for that matter, faith in humanity looks great on paper but never actually seems to work out in practice.
  - beat 8y ago
    That's just platitude. My faith in humanity is grounded in the reality of what we have accomplished, especially over the past century.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
angstrom 8y ago
See: Healthcare Insurance Companies Employs millions, but is ultimately a nationwide make work program to satisfy congressional districts. USA encourages a byzantine system that substitutes waste for the appearance of choice.
nilskidoo 8y ago
The faithful believe that the very billionaires/trillionaires who have pillaged all their holdings from the public, or who inherited their holdings from persons who pillaged it from the public, will magically be willing to float all of society following automation.
- beat 8y ago
  The idea that "billionaires... have pillaged all their holdings from the public" is fundamentally flawed, however emotionally appealing it is. How is Jeff Bezos "pillaging" me? By offering me a broader selection of products than any local store, for better prices and less effort on my part? If this is exploitation, sign me up. (Read Marcuse and other post-WWII critical theorists for in-depth analysis of how this undermined 19th century dreams of proletariat revolution.)
  - nilskidoo 8y ago
    Means can't justify the ends. "Might makes right" is the same logic used by rapists and murderers. We're seeing the privatization of national security into a strictly for-profit endeavor, in real time, and there's no reasonable way to downplay that.
    - beat 8y ago
      What does that have to do with my point? I'm just saying the internet billionaires aren't stealing from me (except maybe Facebook). They got rich by creating products that people find useful and valuable. There's this perception by both left and right that wealth is a zero sum game - that it isn't created, only taken.
      - nilskidoo 8y ago
        "Money doesn't grow on trees." And neither wealth or power comes from good intentions.
mymythisisthis 8y ago
We should have a 4 day work week, with 1 mandatory day of eduction/training (not about ones work).
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  Mandatory? And who's going to determine what it is mandatory that I am taught? That's too close to Maoist-style re-education for my taste...
  - mymythisisthis 8y ago
    Perhaps give people the option. What we think of the 'school system', only really started around 1900. That everyone had to attend to at least grade 6 or 8, or the family would be fined. It was a big struggle to enforce mandatory eduction for children, in official schools. I think we need to have more adult learning opportunities. And, that this has to come from governments, unions, and employers all working together. Take for example car manufacturing plants. We know those factories are going to close, they always do. That means 1000 to 2000 people laid off. Wouldn't it better to have a 4 day work week, with 1 day of education. Perhaps learning auto repair, welding, or some other skill that people can fall back to or transition to. But, the only way to get the 4 day work week, with 1 day of education, is to have a large social shift in how things function.
- pjmorris 8y ago
  I'd sooner see one day mandated for 'anything you see fit to do', which would leave people free to create (or do nothing) as well as to absorb.
  - mymythisisthis 8y ago
    I'm thinking it should be more structured. But, I'm thinking of Amazon warehouse workers. 4 days working in the warehouse, 1 day of training. The training should be provided by the local school board, or the employer would be sure to sabotage the exercise. The person gets to choose form a wide array of courses that the school board has to offer.
scotty79 8y ago
USA has at least 4 systems to support people who don't do anything of utility. Wellfare, bureaucracy, prison system, army.
- wetpaws 8y ago
  Also academia and journalism

beat 8y ago

Why? The productivity is there. 95% of the labor input of farming has been wiped out over the past 200 years, and yet hunger is a smaller problem than it has ever been in the course of human history. The anarchist Bob Black had plenty of interesting things to say about this, but a good generalization of one of his key thoughts is that any job worth doing will have people volunteering to do it. If no one ever had to want for anything in terms of food or shelter, we'd still have firemen. We'd still have doctors. We'd still have farmers. We'd still have teachers. These are all jobs with intrinsic meaning, beyond the paycheck.

nilskidoo 8y ago
As with communism, or democracy for that matter, faith in humanity looks great on paper but never actually seems to work out in practice.
- beat 8y ago
  That's just platitude. My faith in humanity is grounded in the reality of what we have accomplished, especially over the past century.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

angstrom 8y ago

See: Healthcare Insurance Companies Employs millions, but is ultimately a nationwide make work program to satisfy congressional districts. USA encourages a byzantine system that substitutes waste for the appearance of choice.

nilskidoo 8y ago

The faithful believe that the very billionaires/trillionaires who have pillaged all their holdings from the public, or who inherited their holdings from persons who pillaged it from the public, will magically be willing to float all of society following automation.

beat 8y ago
The idea that "billionaires... have pillaged all their holdings from the public" is fundamentally flawed, however emotionally appealing it is. How is Jeff Bezos "pillaging" me? By offering me a broader selection of products than any local store, for better prices and less effort on my part? If this is exploitation, sign me up. (Read Marcuse and other post-WWII critical theorists for in-depth analysis of how this undermined 19th century dreams of proletariat revolution.)
- nilskidoo 8y ago
  Means can't justify the ends. "Might makes right" is the same logic used by rapists and murderers. We're seeing the privatization of national security into a strictly for-profit endeavor, in real time, and there's no reasonable way to downplay that.
  - beat 8y ago
    What does that have to do with my point? I'm just saying the internet billionaires aren't stealing from me (except maybe Facebook). They got rich by creating products that people find useful and valuable. There's this perception by both left and right that wealth is a zero sum game - that it isn't created, only taken.
    - nilskidoo 8y ago
      "Money doesn't grow on trees." And neither wealth or power comes from good intentions.

mymythisisthis 8y ago

We should have a 4 day work week, with 1 mandatory day of eduction/training (not about ones work).

AnimalMuppet 8y ago
Mandatory? And who's going to determine what it is mandatory that I am taught? That's too close to Maoist-style re-education for my taste...
- mymythisisthis 8y ago
  Perhaps give people the option. What we think of the 'school system', only really started around 1900. That everyone had to attend to at least grade 6 or 8, or the family would be fined. It was a big struggle to enforce mandatory eduction for children, in official schools. I think we need to have more adult learning opportunities. And, that this has to come from governments, unions, and employers all working together. Take for example car manufacturing plants. We know those factories are going to close, they always do. That means 1000 to 2000 people laid off. Wouldn't it better to have a 4 day work week, with 1 day of education. Perhaps learning auto repair, welding, or some other skill that people can fall back to or transition to. But, the only way to get the 4 day work week, with 1 day of education, is to have a large social shift in how things function.
pjmorris 8y ago
I'd sooner see one day mandated for 'anything you see fit to do', which would leave people free to create (or do nothing) as well as to absorb.
- mymythisisthis 8y ago
  I'm thinking it should be more structured. But, I'm thinking of Amazon warehouse workers. 4 days working in the warehouse, 1 day of training. The training should be provided by the local school board, or the employer would be sure to sabotage the exercise. The person gets to choose form a wide array of courses that the school board has to offer.

scotty79 8y ago

USA has at least 4 systems to support people who don't do anything of utility. Wellfare, bureaucracy, prison system, army.

wetpaws 8y ago
Also academia and journalism