5 ms·

I do not at all buy into the idea that many people are doing jobs not worth doing or that we are on the verge of running out of worthwhile things to do.

notfromhere 8y ago
Have you worked in a corporate office before?
- sosodev 8y ago
  I can imagine entire swathes of my office being eliminated after a manager figures out how to use Zapier or Microsoft Flow.
  - notfromhere 8y ago
    your average office worker on all levels probably does ~20 hours of real, meaningful work on any given week.
PaulHoule 8y ago
A significant fraction of people, if asked, will tell you that they believe the work they do has no value. That includes a wide range of people from gas station attendants to high-middling corporate dudes. Other people might think differently, maybe that person is depressed, maybe they are depressed because of factors at work -- nevertheless it is a real sentiment.
- dominotw 8y ago
  I as a software engineer feel the same way. There are way too many ppl in on the scam at any sized corporate comapnies. Mangers inflate the value and effort of their work, workers inflate and overestimate all the way up to the chain.
  - notfromhere 8y ago
    I mean just think of how many tens of thousands of individuals are employed building, designing, and selling the nth re-iteration of a CRM product that already exists on the market and is virtually indistinguishable from one another
    - chrisco255 8y ago
      The market has a solution for that: competition. Any CRM that fails to distinguish itself will eventually fade out of existence. Those individuals make a choice to work where they are, doing what they do. Let's not pretend they have no agency. And if customers find the CRM product valuable to them, then those thousands of individuals are performing a valuable service for the world. Saving time, improving efficiency, these are all noble things to strive for. It's not a small thing. There's no such thing as a bullshit job.
      - bhl 8y ago
        In an ideal economic world, yes, employees would have perfect information about a market and make changes accordingly, being rational agents and all of that yada yada. But for the average worker, that’s just simply not true: the job market is imperfect and labor is often sticky.
      - dominotw 8y ago
        1. My company has massive first mover advantage and inertia. All other players have exited the space because all other players were driven out by deep discounts that my company was offering via VC money to capture the market. Now the market is impermeable to any new players. 2. My manager is not really watching out for companies overall profitability. His main goal is to make himself look good and have some BS "accomplishments" on his resume, rise as high as possible in the chain. Eventually this company will go down( for the reasons u mentioned) and my manager will find a new job with his buddies at new place. Repeat.
        chrisco255 8y ago
- dexen 8y ago
  >A significant fraction of people, if asked, will tell you that they believe the work they do has no value. In optimal conditions, a basic job performed to average standard should be saving life of at least one person. Ideally, of a family. That's no small thing, and that's obviously is going to make the worker proud and self-appreciating. Hear me out: it used to be that a job, no matter how mundane (a subsistence farmer, a hunter-gatherer, etc.) was all that stood between this person's - and often his or her family - starving and dying. Used to be there was a clear and present connection between even the most basic task, and prolonging and improving life for the person, and commonly also his or her family. Not anymore. We here in the west have taken this away from most people. No matter how badly they work - or even not work at all - we provide the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy to virtually any citizen anyway [1]. By stripping away the necessity of work we have removed its importance, appreciation, pride, fulfillment and a lot other aspects up top the Maslow's hierarchy. -- [1] not to say "to all citizens at once", but to any given individual? essentially yes.
  - sosodev 8y ago
    I can't think of anywhere in the west that guarantees all of the physiological needs to people who work poorly or not at all. The physiological needs include shelter which many, at least in America, go without. If anything I'd argue the opposite of what you have to say. People are unsatisfied because Maslow's needs are not being met. I work and I'd say I do it well but I don't make enough money to guarantee shelter for myself.
- bhl 8y ago
  I’m more inclined to believe that the reason why people find less meaning in their work is due to a gap in productivity and pay: if a person’s output is increased but their income has not — income for most is a way of measuring the value of work — then it makes sense.
modzu 8y ago
those are two very different points. the first depends on what you consider "worthwhile". for example i think the advertising industry could disappear without detriment to society. but agreed on the second point, as long as there are problems, there is work to do
beat 8y ago
A, but not B. Many people are doing bullshit jobs. But there are also plenty of worthwhile things to do. And frankly, a lot of people would be doing them, if they didn't have to spend much of their time on the bullshit job they need to justify their right to eat.

notfromhere 8y ago

Have you worked in a corporate office before?

sosodev 8y ago
I can imagine entire swathes of my office being eliminated after a manager figures out how to use Zapier or Microsoft Flow.
- notfromhere 8y ago
  your average office worker on all levels probably does ~20 hours of real, meaningful work on any given week.

PaulHoule 8y ago

A significant fraction of people, if asked, will tell you that they believe the work they do has no value. That includes a wide range of people from gas station attendants to high-middling corporate dudes. Other people might think differently, maybe that person is depressed, maybe they are depressed because of factors at work -- nevertheless it is a real sentiment.

dominotw 8y ago
I as a software engineer feel the same way. There are way too many ppl in on the scam at any sized corporate comapnies. Mangers inflate the value and effort of their work, workers inflate and overestimate all the way up to the chain.
- notfromhere 8y ago
  I mean just think of how many tens of thousands of individuals are employed building, designing, and selling the nth re-iteration of a CRM product that already exists on the market and is virtually indistinguishable from one another
  - chrisco255 8y ago
    The market has a solution for that: competition. Any CRM that fails to distinguish itself will eventually fade out of existence. Those individuals make a choice to work where they are, doing what they do. Let's not pretend they have no agency. And if customers find the CRM product valuable to them, then those thousands of individuals are performing a valuable service for the world. Saving time, improving efficiency, these are all noble things to strive for. It's not a small thing. There's no such thing as a bullshit job.
    - bhl 8y ago
      In an ideal economic world, yes, employees would have perfect information about a market and make changes accordingly, being rational agents and all of that yada yada. But for the average worker, that’s just simply not true: the job market is imperfect and labor is often sticky.
    - dominotw 8y ago
      1. My company has massive first mover advantage and inertia. All other players have exited the space because all other players were driven out by deep discounts that my company was offering via VC money to capture the market. Now the market is impermeable to any new players. 2. My manager is not really watching out for companies overall profitability. His main goal is to make himself look good and have some BS "accomplishments" on his resume, rise as high as possible in the chain. Eventually this company will go down( for the reasons u mentioned) and my manager will find a new job with his buddies at new place. Repeat.
      - chrisco255 8y ago
dexen 8y ago
>A significant fraction of people, if asked, will tell you that they believe the work they do has no value. In optimal conditions, a basic job performed to average standard should be saving life of at least one person. Ideally, of a family. That's no small thing, and that's obviously is going to make the worker proud and self-appreciating. Hear me out: it used to be that a job, no matter how mundane (a subsistence farmer, a hunter-gatherer, etc.) was all that stood between this person's - and often his or her family - starving and dying. Used to be there was a clear and present connection between even the most basic task, and prolonging and improving life for the person, and commonly also his or her family. Not anymore. We here in the west have taken this away from most people. No matter how badly they work - or even not work at all - we provide the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy to virtually any citizen anyway [1]. By stripping away the necessity of work we have removed its importance, appreciation, pride, fulfillment and a lot other aspects up top the Maslow's hierarchy. -- [1] not to say "to all citizens at once", but to any given individual? essentially yes.
- sosodev 8y ago
  I can't think of anywhere in the west that guarantees all of the physiological needs to people who work poorly or not at all. The physiological needs include shelter which many, at least in America, go without. If anything I'd argue the opposite of what you have to say. People are unsatisfied because Maslow's needs are not being met. I work and I'd say I do it well but I don't make enough money to guarantee shelter for myself.
bhl 8y ago
I’m more inclined to believe that the reason why people find less meaning in their work is due to a gap in productivity and pay: if a person’s output is increased but their income has not — income for most is a way of measuring the value of work — then it makes sense.

modzu 8y ago

those are two very different points. the first depends on what you consider "worthwhile". for example i think the advertising industry could disappear without detriment to society. but agreed on the second point, as long as there are problems, there is work to do

beat 8y ago

A, but not B. Many people are doing bullshit jobs. But there are also plenty of worthwhile things to do. And frankly, a lot of people would be doing them, if they didn't have to spend much of their time on the bullshit job they need to justify their right to eat.