5 ms·

At a recent event, all of my friends and relatives took lots of photos, then cautioned each other not to use Facebook to post or share any of the photos because

At a recent event, all of my friends and relatives took lots of photos, then cautioned each other not to use Facebook to post or share any of the photos because of privacy and facial recognition concerns. All of them did, however, use WhatsApp to share the photos with each other. <facepalm>

liquid9 8y ago
How much do you believe Whatsapp and Facebook is connected in the backend? Any info on this specifically, especially since theres rumors stirring up that Whatsapp, Facebook, and Instagram are going to come together very soon. I mean your friends and family did choose an encrypted service over an uncrypted one. Better something than nothing no?
- glitchc 8y ago
  I firmly believe they're fully connected, and all information that is possible and reasonable to share is being shared. They paid $22 billion for WhatsApp. What did they pay for, exactly?
  - kajecounterhack 8y ago
    DAUs. Whatsapp is end-to-end encrypted, so they're not connected data-wise.
    - codedokode 8y ago
      Is end-to-end encryption applied to files?
      - noname120 8y ago
        Yes. [1] [1] https://www.whatsapp.com/security/ https://www.whatsapp.com/security/
caprese 8y ago
At the moment, whatsapp is supposed to be end-to-end encrypted. I get the don't trust facebook mantra though, it is valid.
- severine 8y ago
  Are group chats E2E?
  - diminoten 8y ago
    Nothing stopping this from a tech standpoint.
  - caprese 8y ago
    Yes they are supposed to be, when a user joins a chat they cannot see prior messages and I believe this is a byproduct of their key being added to the ring.
  - oarsinsync 8y ago
    According to the current version of the iPhone app, yes, my group chats are E2E encrypted. I believe the mechanism is to use a generic / per message key to encrypt each individual message, and then use each recipient's public key to encrypt the encryption key before sending that (along with a link to the cipher text) to each end user. This is also why sending a video the first time takes forever (encrypt, upload, encrypt key, send key, send link), while forwarding it to another person (encrypt key, send key, send link) does not.
  - rcxdude 8y ago
    Yes. It's actually one of the strongest points of whatsapp compared to other mainstream messanging services (Though Telegram is often touted as a more trustworthly alternative, it does not E2E encrypt by default and in my experience that means almost no-one does it). They've stuck with it even though it results in somewhat goofy UX (for example, no server-side logs, you can't log into other devices without your phone being online, etc).
arcticfox 8y ago
I thought WhatsApp is e2e encrypted, am I ignorant / misled about that? If so I feel like that would be an incredible new level, even for Facebook.
- jak92 8y ago
  I thought WhatsApp is e2e encrypted, Pretty sure they have the keys. edit: guess not.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    I dont think they do, or it would be of minimal value that WhatsApp is encrypted, considering the realistic threat model surrounding What's app use involves corporate and government snooping...
  - wutbrodo 8y ago
    They claim pretty directly otherwise, right on their faq page. > WhatsApp end-to-end encryption ensures only you and the person you're communicating with can read what's sent, and nobody in between, not even WhatsApp. Is your claim that Facebook is plainly lying about this? That would be a a pretty high-risk thing to do, even for them: their usual MO is to cover their abuses in a couple layers of legalese and deniability.
    - baroffoos 8y ago
      The fact that the best method of verification we have is a line in an faq page says a lot about how much you should trust the app.
      - chopin 8y ago
        But that's the same problem with Signal.
        baroffoos 8y ago
        And not a problem we have with matrix.
jak92 8y ago
Does WhatsApp save the pictures for their own use? Does their TOS/Privacy Policy outline what they (if anything) do with photos? I do not have whatsapp or facebook, so I don't know, but similar to OP, many family members do.
- glitchc 8y ago
  Here's WhatsApp's Privacy Policy: https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/#privacy-policy https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/#privacy-policy
  - jak92 8y ago
    Your Messages. We do not retain your messages in the ordinary course of providing our Services to you. Once your messages (including your chats, photos, videos, voice messages, files, and share location information) are delivered, they are deleted from our servers. Your messages are stored on your own device. If a message cannot be delivered immediately (for example, if you are offline), we may keep it on our servers for up to 30 days as we try to deliver it. If a message is still undelivered after 30 days, we delete it. To improve performance and deliver media messages more efficiently, such as when many people are sharing a popular photo or video, we may retain that content on our servers for a longer period of time. We also offer end-to-end encryption for our Services, which is on by default, when you and the people with whom you message use a version of our app released after April 2, 2016. End-to-end encryption means that your messages are encrypted to protect against us and third parties from reading them.
    - chrisweekly 8y ago
      Your Messages. We do not retain your messages in the ordinary course of providing our Services to you. Once your messages (including your chats, photos, videos, voice messages, files, and share location information) are delivered, they are deleted from our servers. Your messages are stored on your own device. If a message cannot be delivered immediately (for example, if you are offline), we may keep it on our servers for up to 30 days as we try to deliver it. If a message is still undelivered after 30 days, we delete it. To improve performance and deliver media messages more efficiently, such as when many people are sharing a popular photo or video, we may retain that content on our servers for a longer period of time. We also offer end-to-end encryption for our Services, which is on by default, when you and the people with whom you message use a version of our app released after April 2, 2016. End-to-end encryption means that your messages are encrypted to protect against us and third parties from reading them. ^ c/pasted to remove horizontal scrollbar
sneak 8y ago
What were their specific concerns relating to facial recognition?
matz1 8y ago
>because of privacy and facial recognition Its a concern to you but not them.
codedokode 8y ago
They actually did a smart thing. Whatsapp is a private messenger, and random person from outside cannot see the photo while social networks are the opposite: they try to make everything you post available to maximum number of people. People might think their photo will be visible only to their friends and might be not aware that it now can be scraped by anyone.

liquid9 8y ago

How much do you believe Whatsapp and Facebook is connected in the backend? Any info on this specifically, especially since theres rumors stirring up that Whatsapp, Facebook, and Instagram are going to come together very soon. I mean your friends and family did choose an encrypted service over an uncrypted one. Better something than nothing no?

glitchc 8y ago
I firmly believe they're fully connected, and all information that is possible and reasonable to share is being shared. They paid $22 billion for WhatsApp. What did they pay for, exactly?
- kajecounterhack 8y ago
  DAUs. Whatsapp is end-to-end encrypted, so they're not connected data-wise.
  - codedokode 8y ago
    Is end-to-end encryption applied to files?
    - noname120 8y ago
      Yes. [1] [1] https://www.whatsapp.com/security/ https://www.whatsapp.com/security/

caprese 8y ago

At the moment, whatsapp is supposed to be end-to-end encrypted. I get the don't trust facebook mantra though, it is valid.

severine 8y ago
Are group chats E2E?
- diminoten 8y ago
  Nothing stopping this from a tech standpoint.
- caprese 8y ago
  Yes they are supposed to be, when a user joins a chat they cannot see prior messages and I believe this is a byproduct of their key being added to the ring.
- oarsinsync 8y ago
  According to the current version of the iPhone app, yes, my group chats are E2E encrypted. I believe the mechanism is to use a generic / per message key to encrypt each individual message, and then use each recipient's public key to encrypt the encryption key before sending that (along with a link to the cipher text) to each end user. This is also why sending a video the first time takes forever (encrypt, upload, encrypt key, send key, send link), while forwarding it to another person (encrypt key, send key, send link) does not.
- rcxdude 8y ago
  Yes. It's actually one of the strongest points of whatsapp compared to other mainstream messanging services (Though Telegram is often touted as a more trustworthly alternative, it does not E2E encrypt by default and in my experience that means almost no-one does it). They've stuck with it even though it results in somewhat goofy UX (for example, no server-side logs, you can't log into other devices without your phone being online, etc).

arcticfox 8y ago

I thought WhatsApp is e2e encrypted, am I ignorant / misled about that? If so I feel like that would be an incredible new level, even for Facebook.

jak92 8y ago
I thought WhatsApp is e2e encrypted, Pretty sure they have the keys. edit: guess not.
- diminoten 8y ago
  I dont think they do, or it would be of minimal value that WhatsApp is encrypted, considering the realistic threat model surrounding What's app use involves corporate and government snooping...
- wutbrodo 8y ago
  They claim pretty directly otherwise, right on their faq page. > WhatsApp end-to-end encryption ensures only you and the person you're communicating with can read what's sent, and nobody in between, not even WhatsApp. Is your claim that Facebook is plainly lying about this? That would be a a pretty high-risk thing to do, even for them: their usual MO is to cover their abuses in a couple layers of legalese and deniability.
  - baroffoos 8y ago
    The fact that the best method of verification we have is a line in an faq page says a lot about how much you should trust the app.
    - chopin 8y ago
      But that's the same problem with Signal.
      - baroffoos 8y ago
        And not a problem we have with matrix.

jak92 8y ago

Does WhatsApp save the pictures for their own use? Does their TOS/Privacy Policy outline what they (if anything) do with photos? I do not have whatsapp or facebook, so I don't know, but similar to OP, many family members do.

glitchc 8y ago
Here's WhatsApp's Privacy Policy: https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/#privacy-policy https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/#privacy-policy
- jak92 8y ago
  Your Messages. We do not retain your messages in the ordinary course of providing our Services to you. Once your messages (including your chats, photos, videos, voice messages, files, and share location information) are delivered, they are deleted from our servers. Your messages are stored on your own device. If a message cannot be delivered immediately (for example, if you are offline), we may keep it on our servers for up to 30 days as we try to deliver it. If a message is still undelivered after 30 days, we delete it. To improve performance and deliver media messages more efficiently, such as when many people are sharing a popular photo or video, we may retain that content on our servers for a longer period of time. We also offer end-to-end encryption for our Services, which is on by default, when you and the people with whom you message use a version of our app released after April 2, 2016. End-to-end encryption means that your messages are encrypted to protect against us and third parties from reading them.
  - chrisweekly 8y ago
    Your Messages. We do not retain your messages in the ordinary course of providing our Services to you. Once your messages (including your chats, photos, videos, voice messages, files, and share location information) are delivered, they are deleted from our servers. Your messages are stored on your own device. If a message cannot be delivered immediately (for example, if you are offline), we may keep it on our servers for up to 30 days as we try to deliver it. If a message is still undelivered after 30 days, we delete it. To improve performance and deliver media messages more efficiently, such as when many people are sharing a popular photo or video, we may retain that content on our servers for a longer period of time. We also offer end-to-end encryption for our Services, which is on by default, when you and the people with whom you message use a version of our app released after April 2, 2016. End-to-end encryption means that your messages are encrypted to protect against us and third parties from reading them. ^ c/pasted to remove horizontal scrollbar

sneak 8y ago

What were their specific concerns relating to facial recognition?

matz1 8y ago

>because of privacy and facial recognition Its a concern to you but not them.

codedokode 8y ago

They actually did a smart thing. Whatsapp is a private messenger, and random person from outside cannot see the photo while social networks are the opposite: they try to make everything you post available to maximum number of people. People might think their photo will be visible only to their friends and might be not aware that it now can be scraped by anyone.