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Someone shared this on a different forums, it’s a recent NPR interview of a pilot for American Airlines. https://overcast.fm/+nmn7rqq0/06:04 https://overcast.f

Someone shared this on a different forums, it’s a recent NPR interview of a pilot for American Airlines. https://overcast.fm/+nmn7rqq0/06:04 https://overcast.fm/+nmn7rqq0/06:04 It’s a short interview but in short, * Boeing left out info on the new flight control system in the pilots manual they trained with * the training to fly the new planes was 56 minutes of PowerPoint presentations on an iPad * he would not have known how to correct the system in the Lion Air crash had he have been the pilot

chipsa 8y ago
If he doesn't know how to correct for runaway stabilizer trim, then he probably should be decertified. It's a memory item: https://www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/b737/b737memoryitems.php#i https://www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/b737/b737memor... And the checklist is 4 items long. Item 3 disables MCAS.
- lqet 8y ago
  I am curious regarding item 4: STABILIZER TRIM WHEEL - GRASP and HOLD How does the trim wheel work? Is it mechanically connected to the stabilizer?
  - 20after4 8y ago
    Yes I believe it's mechanically connected.
    - lqet 8y ago
      Ok, so in the worst case you are still able to block the motor that does the automatic trimming with your bare hands. Which seems like a reasonable fall-back. Thanks!
  - racingmars 8y ago
    > How does the trim wheel work? Is it mechanically connected to the stabilizer? On 737s, yes, the trim wheel is mechanically connected by cables. To quote the 737-800 FCOM: "Manual stabilizer control is accomplished through cables which allow the pilot to position the stabilizer by rotating the stabilizer trim wheels. The stabilizer is held in position by two independent brake systems. Manual rotation of the trim wheels can be used to override autopilot or main electric trim. The effort required to manually rotate the stabilizer trim wheels may be higher under certain flight conditions. Grasping the stabilizer trim wheel will stop stabilizer trim motion."
- salawat 8y ago
  I think the problem is he wouldn't have recognized the behavior pattern that keys "runaway stabilizer trim" in the extra conditions over and above what is trained for a faulty MCAS activation would result in. If you're not aware of something, it takes a non-trivial amount of time to break out of your trained response envelope and to start thinking outside the box. This is a problem with many training heavy disciplines where the general response upon "hearing hoofbeats" is to think "horse", and only to escalate to the more exotic "Zebra" conclusion as facts demand it. While it's generally a better response, in time constrained situations without the benefit of foreknowledge, it can be quite costly indeed.
  - DuskStar 8y ago
    Unfortunately, there's only 12 items on that list - and the reason that they're memory items is that they're "fix ASAP or bad things happen" items. A: Aborted Engine Start B: Airspeed Unreliable C: Cabin Altitude Warning D: Emergency Descent E: Engine Fire or Engine Severe Damage or Separation F: Engine Limit / Surge / Stall G: Engine Overheat H: Loss of Thrust on Both Engines I: Runaway Stabilizer J: Uncommanded Roll K: APU Fire L: Overspeed - Warning Clacker From a quick glance, I can recall accidents caused by/involving at least 6 of those general categories (C, E, F, H, I, J, L) and several others (A, K) are primarily ground issues from what I can tell. If the pilot doesn't know one of them, what's the chance they don't know some of the others? > If you're not aware of something, it takes a non-trivial amount of time to break out of your trained response envelope and to start thinking outside the box. Unfortunately, the MCAS fix is one of the things written on the envelope - there shouldn't be any unpacking to do in the first place. Yes, the plane shouldn't put pilots in that position. But at the same time, pilots need to be ready to be put into that position - because sometimes things don't work for reasons outside your control. Like eating a couple geese on takeoff in both engines or something else equally unlikely.

chipsa 8y ago

If he doesn't know how to correct for runaway stabilizer trim, then he probably should be decertified. It's a memory item: https://www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/b737/b737memoryitems.php#i https://www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/b737/b737memor... And the checklist is 4 items long. Item 3 disables MCAS.

lqet 8y ago
I am curious regarding item 4: STABILIZER TRIM WHEEL - GRASP and HOLD How does the trim wheel work? Is it mechanically connected to the stabilizer?
- 20after4 8y ago
  Yes I believe it's mechanically connected.
  - lqet 8y ago
    Ok, so in the worst case you are still able to block the motor that does the automatic trimming with your bare hands. Which seems like a reasonable fall-back. Thanks!
- racingmars 8y ago
  > How does the trim wheel work? Is it mechanically connected to the stabilizer? On 737s, yes, the trim wheel is mechanically connected by cables. To quote the 737-800 FCOM: "Manual stabilizer control is accomplished through cables which allow the pilot to position the stabilizer by rotating the stabilizer trim wheels. The stabilizer is held in position by two independent brake systems. Manual rotation of the trim wheels can be used to override autopilot or main electric trim. The effort required to manually rotate the stabilizer trim wheels may be higher under certain flight conditions. Grasping the stabilizer trim wheel will stop stabilizer trim motion."
salawat 8y ago
I think the problem is he wouldn't have recognized the behavior pattern that keys "runaway stabilizer trim" in the extra conditions over and above what is trained for a faulty MCAS activation would result in. If you're not aware of something, it takes a non-trivial amount of time to break out of your trained response envelope and to start thinking outside the box. This is a problem with many training heavy disciplines where the general response upon "hearing hoofbeats" is to think "horse", and only to escalate to the more exotic "Zebra" conclusion as facts demand it. While it's generally a better response, in time constrained situations without the benefit of foreknowledge, it can be quite costly indeed.
- DuskStar 8y ago
  Unfortunately, there's only 12 items on that list - and the reason that they're memory items is that they're "fix ASAP or bad things happen" items. A: Aborted Engine Start B: Airspeed Unreliable C: Cabin Altitude Warning D: Emergency Descent E: Engine Fire or Engine Severe Damage or Separation F: Engine Limit / Surge / Stall G: Engine Overheat H: Loss of Thrust on Both Engines I: Runaway Stabilizer J: Uncommanded Roll K: APU Fire L: Overspeed - Warning Clacker From a quick glance, I can recall accidents caused by/involving at least 6 of those general categories (C, E, F, H, I, J, L) and several others (A, K) are primarily ground issues from what I can tell. If the pilot doesn't know one of them, what's the chance they don't know some of the others? > If you're not aware of something, it takes a non-trivial amount of time to break out of your trained response envelope and to start thinking outside the box. Unfortunately, the MCAS fix is one of the things written on the envelope - there shouldn't be any unpacking to do in the first place. Yes, the plane shouldn't put pilots in that position. But at the same time, pilots need to be ready to be put into that position - because sometimes things don't work for reasons outside your control. Like eating a couple geese on takeoff in both engines or something else equally unlikely.